You'd think an episode containing flashbacks, time-traveling, and jumping between the island and the mainland storylines might get pretty complicated. Nah. This is Season 5, and if you're still here by now you're dedicated and die hard. The Little Prince was one of LOST's transition episodes designed to bring everyone together in a certain spot or put them where they need to be in order to advance the storyline. Past episodes like that have been pretty mediocre... but then again past episodes haven't given us Danielle Rousseau's crew, the return of Jin, and Hurley in a giant orange jumpsuit! Things I Noticed:
Hey, wanna lie to millions of people? Okay, can I keep this baby? Sure! (High-Five!)
Alright, so it didn't go down exactly like that. Here again (for some reason) the writers feel the need to show us the origin of the big O6 lie. But we also see the moment where Kate decides to keep and raise Aaron. At this point we already know they're doomed to fail, but in retrospect we knew this the moment Claire's creepy psychic insisted her baby never, EVER be raised by another. Oops.
Perhaps the origin of Jack and Kate's off-island relationship is show here as well. Kate's assertion that she's "always been with" Jack brings us back to the more innocent days of S1 and S2 where she backed pretty much any decision Jack made. Her words also infer the romantic ties that we'll see later on. Since the beginning of LOST, I've always thought Kate would end up with Jack. I've since changed my mind. Just as these characters were never meant to leave the island, Jack and Kate's attempt at being together was never meant to happen. Can you handle another Matrix parallel? The off-island world we've seen these past two seasons is nothing but our six main characters living in a bogus world - a timeline that never should've spawned - 'another life' that none of them ever should have ever had, and cannot continue within. I also think that whatever 'repair' happens after they return to the island will cause this timeline to never have existed at all, nullifying Jack and Kate's entire relationship, making it nothing but a holodeck fantasy with an unhappy ending.
Sawyer's Right... Time Travel IS a Bitch
The nosebleeds come fast and furious this episode. Juliet manages to shake Faraday down for what seems to be minimal information - he's still not telling us everything he knows. Miles seems uncharacteristically calm after his starts up, and goes to Daniel for answers. We get a little more here, as Faraday asks him if he's ever been on the island before and then reiterates with "Are you sure?". Apparently people who've been on the island before (or for a long time) are in a lot of trouble. Charlotte's vague familiarity with the island points to her having been a past resident. Juliet begins bleeding later on, but we already know she's spent significant time on the island. This leaves Miles, who Faraday now suspects is an unknowing ex-islander. Is this the place where Miles powers originate from? Probably.
I'm thinking back to right after the first time the sky turned purple, where Jack and Kate (but for some reason not Sawyer) were inoculated by the Others. Maybe this had something to do with protecting them from whatever's happening to Charlotte, Miles, and Juliette. Maybe not. In any case, these three people are coming down with Minkowski-itis, and left untreated they're going to end up like Teresa. It also seemed that Daniel just might be Charlotte's constant. When she woke up she didn't recognize him, as if her consciousness had flashed to a past portion of her life where she hadn't yet met Faraday. Upon seeing him she suddenly knew again where (and when) she was. Maybe contact with her constant anchored her memories... or maybe she would've slipped back into the 'present' no matter who was kneeling over her.
Ingredients: Milk, cocoa, sugar, lead, steel, brass, gunpowder...
Valentine's day comes a week early for Sun, as Charles Widmore sends her the Whitman Assassin Sampler. Feeding on Sun's growing anger toward Ben Linus, it initially looks like Widmore hopes to use her as a killing tool. But more likely I think, is that Widmore knows it's not that easy. Although he sent the gun, I'm pretty sure Widmore knows any plan to assassinate Ben Linus is doomed to fail. He also knows the O6 need to be together in order to find the island again. I'd bet my ass that within that gun might be a way of tracking Sun there, or at least tracking her to the docks. By playing on Sun's thirst for vengeance, and by knowing she'll eventually hook up with Ben again, it would be a great way to locate him.
Paradox Schmaradox
This episode paved the way for what could be some very serious Michael J. Fox shenanigans. It was cool to see Locke intentionally avoiding running into his past self at the hatch, knowing in a very Ben-like manner that he needed things to play out the way they already have. Ditto for Sawyer, awestruck at seeing his past friends, lovestruck at seeing Kate, and completely powerless to do anything but watch. I wasn't sure our characters would ever jump back to a time period where we know they're already on the island, because a simultaneous duplicate of something, or someone, seems to go against the perceived fabric of the universe.
That being said, this explains a LOT of things. First, it explains why Richard gave Locke the compass. Last week arguments raged regarding the paradox of "If Richard gave Locke the compass, and Richard had it because Locke gave it to him, then who had it in the first place?" Chicken or the egg? Very paradoxical... but only if you assume there can only be one compass. Although we never see two Lockes or two Sawyers, we can assume there were two of each of them on the island the night that Boone died. This means there can also be two compasses. Future Richard gave Locke his compass and told him to give it to past Richard. I'm guess that when Locke made the hand-off, Richard already had his compass. So now he's holding two of them, identical to each other, lending weight and credence to Locke's time-traveler story. Future Richard did this to convince his past self that Locke wasn't crazy or lying.
This also explains the sudden appearances (and disappearances) of people like Goodwin's wife Harper. Notice how she showed up out of nowhere and disappeared just as fast. Do you think she's squatting a lean-to on the ass-side of the island? Hell no - Harper's skipping along just like our main island characters are right now. Imagine Claire and Kate seeing Sawyer peering at them through the jungle, then impossibly disappearing as he's flashed away. Kate and Claire wouldn't (and didn't) see the flash - only Sawyer did. He's trapped on the needle of a broken record, skipping along whenever it jumps. Take the appearance of Walt... talking to Shannon right before she's gutshot by Ana Lucia. He was picked up by the needle a long time ago, and has been skipping ever since. But hey, didn't we see Walt leave the island with Michael? Yeah... one of him anyway.
And while we're talking about Walt and Harper showing up at various points in time, let's talk about the rain. The skipping explains the rain. It rained when Harper showed up... it rained when Walt spoke to Shannon. It rained because these people were time-skipping, and it stopped raining shortly afterward. Need more proof? It rained when Alpert came to see and test young Locke. It rained when the freighter crew arrived on the island, because they had to skip through time (31 minutes to be exact). It rained when Desmond's boat arrived on the island, and even in this episode when the canoe jumped. And yes, it's rained numerous other times as well... but who knows what skips and jumps might've happened those times that we don't yet know about?
This could also explain all the backward whispers, phrases, and phone calls. Sawyer jumped backward in time to witness the birth of Aaron... if he'd called out to them would he be speaking backwards like Walt was? Did Kate's late night phone call come from someone who skipped to the future? I'd like to think all the backwards talking has semi-logical reasons behind it in the storyline of LOST. Although it was fun to play and decipher all that reverse audio in past seasons, I'd hate to think it was just a gimmick to keep the fans buzzing. And although I think the whispers are more than just echos of people stuck on the needle of the island's record player, I think they definitely originate from those people somehow, in some way we haven't seen yet.
I'm Not Sure How Iraq Ever Lost Desert Storm
With Sayid on their team? They must not have been using him effectively. Every week Sayid reaches new levels of complete badassedness. At this point I'm not sure who wants him filled with purple darts (Widmore?) but they're pretty persistent and have great info. The address in that dude's pocket didn't represent his employer, it probably represented his next target - Kate. Maybe Widmore is trying to obtain the whole O6 collection. Already he's got Sun in his pocket, which is kind of strange because I'd think Sun would be a little smarter than she's been acting these past few episodes. He probably sent that guy to get Hurley, too.
I thought it was pretty surreal watching Jack on the phone with Kate outside the hospital, while his buddies Sayid and Ben(!) rolled up behind him. I remember when neither one of them would ever turn their back on Benjamin Linus - it's funny how far we've come.
He's my Lawyer
And he's a damned good one.
Jin is a Lovable, Indestructible Piece of Season-Finale Driftwood
I'm not sure which was more exciting - seeing Jin alive again or seeing Rousseau and her crew arrive on the island! In this fantastic 1988 throwback, we're given the entire science expedition: pregnant Danielle, her boyfriend Robert and all. On their way to the beach they pull a very waterlogged Jin to safety. The assumed sequence of events here: Jin was blasted from the freighter, swam for the island, collapsed onto a piece of wreckage, and has endured 4 or 5 time-zaps so far. This means that Jin has been skipping parallel to Sawyer and Locke's group: when Danielle's crew disappears at the next time-jump, Jin will be standing there alone. At first I was psyched because I figured we'd see the sickness that befalls Danielle's crew... but then I looked it up again and they're not getting sick for several weeks. At least maybe we'll see the radio tower.
More significant though, is what Jin's appearance means to the storyline. If Danielle's group had originally pulled Jin from the ocean, wouldn't she have recognized him all those years later when she met the 815 survivors back in Season One? But she didn't. And the fact that she didn't could very well mean that things have changed. Just as Richard doesn't recognize Locke later on, just as Ethan didn't seem to recognize him either... these future-to-past meetings seem to indicate that this is the first time these changes have occurred - at least within this time loop.
Desmond's changes (keeping Charlie alive long enough to make the island visible) to the original pre-destined timeline ended up bringing in the freighter and allowed the Oceanic Six to leave the island. The result: everything that happens afterward is happening for the very first time. This is why, I think, there's hope for a resolution to LOST. There's an end event that's never happened before, one that Desmond's ability to change things will eventually bring.
Ben's New Super Power? Awkwardly Telling the Truth at the Worst Possible Moment
Although most of the main characters have undertaken major transformations during the course of the show, there are still many people who reject any kind of improvement to Benjamin Linus. Not that I can blame them. Ben has duped us so many times it's almost embarrassing to watch the show and take anything he says at face value. Since the day we met him, Ben's been handing out lies like chewing gum. He's been blowing bubbles in everyone's faces, and whenever he's caught he just smirks and shrugs.
But then remember, in almost every plotline of LOST there's always a twist. Even something as simple as Claire's mother trying to gain custody of Aaron can't be that straightforward - it has to end in some kind of a U-turn. So when it comes to Benjamin Linus, king of con artists... I think the twist here is that Ben is NOT lying. All those seasons ago, when Ben told Michael that he was one of the 'good guys' I think he'll turn out to be just that.
On the island, Ben's non-stop stream of lies began the day he gassed his pop. It continued through his reign over the Others, his recruiting of Juliet, and his involvement with everyone on flight 815. Yet through all that planned deception geared toward guiding everyone along the 'correct' paths in our story, Ben still failed to keep Widmore's people off the island. In that regard, his master plan failed. I think he realized this when he abdicated his island throne and turned the donkey wheel. Since leaving the island, I'm fairly sure Ben's been trying a completely different approach: the truth.
Has he told lies to bring the O6 back together again? Sure. But he's also told the stark, clean truth. Take the way he came utterly, completely clean to Hurley right before Hugo gave himself up to the police. Although it backfired, it was a little astonishing to see him NOT lying for once. And then this episode, Ben comes totally clean to Kate. He didn't use lawyers and a very elaborate story (complete with intentional visit to Claire's mom) just to bring her to the dock... Ben wanted Kate to believe that Aaron was being hunted; his plan was to frighten her back to the one place on Earth no one would ever find them. Instead, in front of everyone, he abruptly abandons this idea and decides upon different approach. Ben tells her the truth, even stumbles over it, and trusts that he and the other characters will still be able to convince her to return to the island. Whether it works or not, this is a scary new approach for Ben. He's been in uncharted waters since he turned the wheel, and he's trying new things. I also think his character has been humanized quite a bit. Him asking Sayid "Why did you take it upon yourself to rescue Hugo?" was very telling. The was no reason for him asking this other than to genuinely want to know why. For so much of his life, almost every decision Ben's made (with Alex being the exception) has been geared toward achieving or accomplishing a specific set of goals. People helping each other for the sake of friendship is a difficult concept for him to grasp. It's a lot like in T2, when the unfeeling terminator keeps asking young John Connor "why?". Ben's traditionally been the Terminator of all things not necessary to the island's cause.
Sawyer turned over a new leaf, Charlie got sober, even Michael made good (at least partially) for the things he'd done. Maybe Ben's redemption involves washing his filthy lying mouth out with some anti-bullshit soap. And for those of you who think the final FINAL twist will be him turning out to be mustache-twistingly evil after all... well, we'll see. :)
The Ultimate Theory in Course Correction (a.k.a. "Oh Shutup Vozzek, That's Just Preposterous!")
It was creepy, it was eerie, and it was my favorite part of the episode: Sawyer & crew arriving back at 'their camp'. Someone's been eating all the porridge, drinking all the Dharma beer, and breaking the all island's leash laws. Locke pointedly asks "I wonder when all this happened?" From the very beginning of this scene, something seemed off. And from the minute Juliet found the Ajira Airways water bottle to the final seconds of the bullet-ridden canoe-chase, I realized we were looking at the future.
For a moment, let's imagine that the 815'ers failed at whatever the island needed them to do. Going with Hawking's theory of course-correction, the island would still need to bring people to it. Jacob would still need some help. What we saw here was the next generation of LOST: one in which the plane that crashed came from India, one in which the crash survivors were just different people playing the same roles. Most things would occur along the same lines: they'd build a camp, they'd be terrorized by the smoke monster, there would be lots of fighting and gunfire. Eventually they'd find the remnants of the 815 camp and wonder what the hell it was, much the same way our characters found the Black Rock and the 4-toed statue. They'd also scrap with the Others - early and often.
So now let's pretend for a minute that the group in the other outrigger canoe was comprised of the flight "518" survivors. They see our main characters and assume they're the Others. They give chase, take some shots, and then suddenly Locke and Sawyer's canoe is whisked away: conveniently time-skipped back to the past (pouring rain and everything).
Desmond's been saying it since season 2: "See you in another life". Effectively this IS another life, just as the off-island world that the O6 now play conspiracy games in is another life as well. Another prophetic old statement by Jin to Hurley: "Everything is going to change". Imagine that every time something changes we see another life... if the change is a minor one, all you'll see are a few picture frames changing style. If the change is significant, and happens at the root level of LOST's story, maybe another whole plane crash happened. I wouldn't even be surprised to find out that Locke was leading his own group of Others in the first canoe, effectively chasing a version of his former, past self. Bananas? Definitely! But remember Frank Duckett's words: "It'll come back around". Not to mention this would also make Sawyer's sarcastic "Other Others" line ironically close to the truth
What we saw this episode was a really cool, really dark mirror universe of our existing storyline. It happened very fast, and we weren't meant to see much. Reality turns out to be a very thinly veiled curtain on LOST, and the writers are yanking on it. But their story is their story, and it totally rocks.
I just hope the last scene of LOST doesn't end with a new set of characters getting on a new plane in India...
The nosebleeds come fast and furious this episode. Juliet manages to shake Faraday down for what seems to be minimal information - he's still not telling us everything he knows. Miles seems uncharacteristically calm after his starts up, and goes to Daniel for answers. We get a little more here, as Faraday asks him if he's ever been on the island before and then reiterates with "Are you sure?". Apparently people who've been on the island before (or for a long time) are in a lot of trouble. Charlotte's vague familiarity with the island points to her having been a past resident. Juliet begins bleeding later on, but we already know she's spent significant time on the island. This leaves Miles, who Faraday now suspects is an unknowing ex-islander. Is this the place where Miles powers originate from? Probably.
I'm thinking back to right after the first time the sky turned purple, where Jack and Kate (but for some reason not Sawyer) were inoculated by the Others. Maybe this had something to do with protecting them from whatever's happening to Charlotte, Miles, and Juliette. Maybe not. In any case, these three people are coming down with Minkowski-itis, and left untreated they're going to end up like Teresa. It also seemed that Daniel just might be Charlotte's constant. When she woke up she didn't recognize him, as if her consciousness had flashed to a past portion of her life where she hadn't yet met Faraday. Upon seeing him she suddenly knew again where (and when) she was. Maybe contact with her constant anchored her memories... or maybe she would've slipped back into the 'present' no matter who was kneeling over her.
Ingredients: Milk, cocoa, sugar, lead, steel, brass, gunpowder...
Valentine's day comes a week early for Sun, as Charles Widmore sends her the Whitman Assassin Sampler. Feeding on Sun's growing anger toward Ben Linus, it initially looks like Widmore hopes to use her as a killing tool. But more likely I think, is that Widmore knows it's not that easy. Although he sent the gun, I'm pretty sure Widmore knows any plan to assassinate Ben Linus is doomed to fail. He also knows the O6 need to be together in order to find the island again. I'd bet my ass that within that gun might be a way of tracking Sun there, or at least tracking her to the docks. By playing on Sun's thirst for vengeance, and by knowing she'll eventually hook up with Ben again, it would be a great way to locate him.
Paradox Schmaradox
This episode paved the way for what could be some very serious Michael J. Fox shenanigans. It was cool to see Locke intentionally avoiding running into his past self at the hatch, knowing in a very Ben-like manner that he needed things to play out the way they already have. Ditto for Sawyer, awestruck at seeing his past friends, lovestruck at seeing Kate, and completely powerless to do anything but watch. I wasn't sure our characters would ever jump back to a time period where we know they're already on the island, because a simultaneous duplicate of something, or someone, seems to go against the perceived fabric of the universe.
That being said, this explains a LOT of things. First, it explains why Richard gave Locke the compass. Last week arguments raged regarding the paradox of "If Richard gave Locke the compass, and Richard had it because Locke gave it to him, then who had it in the first place?" Chicken or the egg? Very paradoxical... but only if you assume there can only be one compass. Although we never see two Lockes or two Sawyers, we can assume there were two of each of them on the island the night that Boone died. This means there can also be two compasses. Future Richard gave Locke his compass and told him to give it to past Richard. I'm guess that when Locke made the hand-off, Richard already had his compass. So now he's holding two of them, identical to each other, lending weight and credence to Locke's time-traveler story. Future Richard did this to convince his past self that Locke wasn't crazy or lying.
This also explains the sudden appearances (and disappearances) of people like Goodwin's wife Harper. Notice how she showed up out of nowhere and disappeared just as fast. Do you think she's squatting a lean-to on the ass-side of the island? Hell no - Harper's skipping along just like our main island characters are right now. Imagine Claire and Kate seeing Sawyer peering at them through the jungle, then impossibly disappearing as he's flashed away. Kate and Claire wouldn't (and didn't) see the flash - only Sawyer did. He's trapped on the needle of a broken record, skipping along whenever it jumps. Take the appearance of Walt... talking to Shannon right before she's gutshot by Ana Lucia. He was picked up by the needle a long time ago, and has been skipping ever since. But hey, didn't we see Walt leave the island with Michael? Yeah... one of him anyway.
And while we're talking about Walt and Harper showing up at various points in time, let's talk about the rain. The skipping explains the rain. It rained when Harper showed up... it rained when Walt spoke to Shannon. It rained because these people were time-skipping, and it stopped raining shortly afterward. Need more proof? It rained when Alpert came to see and test young Locke. It rained when the freighter crew arrived on the island, because they had to skip through time (31 minutes to be exact). It rained when Desmond's boat arrived on the island, and even in this episode when the canoe jumped. And yes, it's rained numerous other times as well... but who knows what skips and jumps might've happened those times that we don't yet know about?
This could also explain all the backward whispers, phrases, and phone calls. Sawyer jumped backward in time to witness the birth of Aaron... if he'd called out to them would he be speaking backwards like Walt was? Did Kate's late night phone call come from someone who skipped to the future? I'd like to think all the backwards talking has semi-logical reasons behind it in the storyline of LOST. Although it was fun to play and decipher all that reverse audio in past seasons, I'd hate to think it was just a gimmick to keep the fans buzzing. And although I think the whispers are more than just echos of people stuck on the needle of the island's record player, I think they definitely originate from those people somehow, in some way we haven't seen yet.
I'm Not Sure How Iraq Ever Lost Desert Storm
With Sayid on their team? They must not have been using him effectively. Every week Sayid reaches new levels of complete badassedness. At this point I'm not sure who wants him filled with purple darts (Widmore?) but they're pretty persistent and have great info. The address in that dude's pocket didn't represent his employer, it probably represented his next target - Kate. Maybe Widmore is trying to obtain the whole O6 collection. Already he's got Sun in his pocket, which is kind of strange because I'd think Sun would be a little smarter than she's been acting these past few episodes. He probably sent that guy to get Hurley, too.
I thought it was pretty surreal watching Jack on the phone with Kate outside the hospital, while his buddies Sayid and Ben(!) rolled up behind him. I remember when neither one of them would ever turn their back on Benjamin Linus - it's funny how far we've come.
He's my Lawyer
And he's a damned good one.
Jin is a Lovable, Indestructible Piece of Season-Finale Driftwood
I'm not sure which was more exciting - seeing Jin alive again or seeing Rousseau and her crew arrive on the island! In this fantastic 1988 throwback, we're given the entire science expedition: pregnant Danielle, her boyfriend Robert and all. On their way to the beach they pull a very waterlogged Jin to safety. The assumed sequence of events here: Jin was blasted from the freighter, swam for the island, collapsed onto a piece of wreckage, and has endured 4 or 5 time-zaps so far. This means that Jin has been skipping parallel to Sawyer and Locke's group: when Danielle's crew disappears at the next time-jump, Jin will be standing there alone. At first I was psyched because I figured we'd see the sickness that befalls Danielle's crew... but then I looked it up again and they're not getting sick for several weeks. At least maybe we'll see the radio tower.
More significant though, is what Jin's appearance means to the storyline. If Danielle's group had originally pulled Jin from the ocean, wouldn't she have recognized him all those years later when she met the 815 survivors back in Season One? But she didn't. And the fact that she didn't could very well mean that things have changed. Just as Richard doesn't recognize Locke later on, just as Ethan didn't seem to recognize him either... these future-to-past meetings seem to indicate that this is the first time these changes have occurred - at least within this time loop.
Desmond's changes (keeping Charlie alive long enough to make the island visible) to the original pre-destined timeline ended up bringing in the freighter and allowed the Oceanic Six to leave the island. The result: everything that happens afterward is happening for the very first time. This is why, I think, there's hope for a resolution to LOST. There's an end event that's never happened before, one that Desmond's ability to change things will eventually bring.
Ben's New Super Power? Awkwardly Telling the Truth at the Worst Possible Moment
Although most of the main characters have undertaken major transformations during the course of the show, there are still many people who reject any kind of improvement to Benjamin Linus. Not that I can blame them. Ben has duped us so many times it's almost embarrassing to watch the show and take anything he says at face value. Since the day we met him, Ben's been handing out lies like chewing gum. He's been blowing bubbles in everyone's faces, and whenever he's caught he just smirks and shrugs.
But then remember, in almost every plotline of LOST there's always a twist. Even something as simple as Claire's mother trying to gain custody of Aaron can't be that straightforward - it has to end in some kind of a U-turn. So when it comes to Benjamin Linus, king of con artists... I think the twist here is that Ben is NOT lying. All those seasons ago, when Ben told Michael that he was one of the 'good guys' I think he'll turn out to be just that.
On the island, Ben's non-stop stream of lies began the day he gassed his pop. It continued through his reign over the Others, his recruiting of Juliet, and his involvement with everyone on flight 815. Yet through all that planned deception geared toward guiding everyone along the 'correct' paths in our story, Ben still failed to keep Widmore's people off the island. In that regard, his master plan failed. I think he realized this when he abdicated his island throne and turned the donkey wheel. Since leaving the island, I'm fairly sure Ben's been trying a completely different approach: the truth.
Has he told lies to bring the O6 back together again? Sure. But he's also told the stark, clean truth. Take the way he came utterly, completely clean to Hurley right before Hugo gave himself up to the police. Although it backfired, it was a little astonishing to see him NOT lying for once. And then this episode, Ben comes totally clean to Kate. He didn't use lawyers and a very elaborate story (complete with intentional visit to Claire's mom) just to bring her to the dock... Ben wanted Kate to believe that Aaron was being hunted; his plan was to frighten her back to the one place on Earth no one would ever find them. Instead, in front of everyone, he abruptly abandons this idea and decides upon different approach. Ben tells her the truth, even stumbles over it, and trusts that he and the other characters will still be able to convince her to return to the island. Whether it works or not, this is a scary new approach for Ben. He's been in uncharted waters since he turned the wheel, and he's trying new things. I also think his character has been humanized quite a bit. Him asking Sayid "Why did you take it upon yourself to rescue Hugo?" was very telling. The was no reason for him asking this other than to genuinely want to know why. For so much of his life, almost every decision Ben's made (with Alex being the exception) has been geared toward achieving or accomplishing a specific set of goals. People helping each other for the sake of friendship is a difficult concept for him to grasp. It's a lot like in T2, when the unfeeling terminator keeps asking young John Connor "why?". Ben's traditionally been the Terminator of all things not necessary to the island's cause.
Sawyer turned over a new leaf, Charlie got sober, even Michael made good (at least partially) for the things he'd done. Maybe Ben's redemption involves washing his filthy lying mouth out with some anti-bullshit soap. And for those of you who think the final FINAL twist will be him turning out to be mustache-twistingly evil after all... well, we'll see. :)
The Ultimate Theory in Course Correction (a.k.a. "Oh Shutup Vozzek, That's Just Preposterous!")
It was creepy, it was eerie, and it was my favorite part of the episode: Sawyer & crew arriving back at 'their camp'. Someone's been eating all the porridge, drinking all the Dharma beer, and breaking the all island's leash laws. Locke pointedly asks "I wonder when all this happened?" From the very beginning of this scene, something seemed off. And from the minute Juliet found the Ajira Airways water bottle to the final seconds of the bullet-ridden canoe-chase, I realized we were looking at the future.
For a moment, let's imagine that the 815'ers failed at whatever the island needed them to do. Going with Hawking's theory of course-correction, the island would still need to bring people to it. Jacob would still need some help. What we saw here was the next generation of LOST: one in which the plane that crashed came from India, one in which the crash survivors were just different people playing the same roles. Most things would occur along the same lines: they'd build a camp, they'd be terrorized by the smoke monster, there would be lots of fighting and gunfire. Eventually they'd find the remnants of the 815 camp and wonder what the hell it was, much the same way our characters found the Black Rock and the 4-toed statue. They'd also scrap with the Others - early and often.
So now let's pretend for a minute that the group in the other outrigger canoe was comprised of the flight "518" survivors. They see our main characters and assume they're the Others. They give chase, take some shots, and then suddenly Locke and Sawyer's canoe is whisked away: conveniently time-skipped back to the past (pouring rain and everything).
Desmond's been saying it since season 2: "See you in another life". Effectively this IS another life, just as the off-island world that the O6 now play conspiracy games in is another life as well. Another prophetic old statement by Jin to Hurley: "Everything is going to change". Imagine that every time something changes we see another life... if the change is a minor one, all you'll see are a few picture frames changing style. If the change is significant, and happens at the root level of LOST's story, maybe another whole plane crash happened. I wouldn't even be surprised to find out that Locke was leading his own group of Others in the first canoe, effectively chasing a version of his former, past self. Bananas? Definitely! But remember Frank Duckett's words: "It'll come back around". Not to mention this would also make Sawyer's sarcastic "Other Others" line ironically close to the truth
What we saw this episode was a really cool, really dark mirror universe of our existing storyline. It happened very fast, and we weren't meant to see much. Reality turns out to be a very thinly veiled curtain on LOST, and the writers are yanking on it. But their story is their story, and it totally rocks.
I just hope the last scene of LOST doesn't end with a new set of characters getting on a new plane in India...
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118 Comments:
The numbers are each tied to a specific character and once one of their past's are changed the plane will not crash on the island and that is my guess how the show will end. The plane never crashed.
Dark, click to view photos? Shouldn't it say, click to read more? :-)
More significant though, is what Jin's appearance means to the storyline. If Danielle's group had originally pulled Jin from the ocean, wouldn't she have recognized him all those years later when she met the 815 survivors back in Season One? But she didn't.
===========
I don't even remember what I had for breakfast a few days ago... you really think it's plausible that a one-time meeting that lasts at best a couple minutes (or a few hours at most until the next flash) would remember after going insane and SIXTEEN years pass by? No, she wouldn't. :)
I'm wondering if Rousseau's people get stuck in time too. They all get "the sickness" aka Minkowski's disease and die. Danielle doesn't because of a constant. Sayid?
I agree with Jake. You are reading far too much into Danielle not recognizing Jin when you say that it's proof that the past can be changed. The only thing its proof of is that a woman who is insane and isolated for 16 years might not have the best memory. Besides, even if Danielle did recognize Jin 16 years later, there's no way she would have assumed it must have been the same guy they found in the ocean 16 years earlier who happens to be a time traveler. She simply would have thought to herself, "Hey, that Asian guy kinda looks a bit like that guy we found 16 years ago."
On a related note, I'm not sure that Richard or Ethan didn't remember Locke after he crashed. Actually, I think it's quite clear that they DID remember him. Ethan was very eager to spend time alone with Locke hunting. Richard hinted that they've been waiting for him a very long time.
All things considered, I think the show has been very clear that Daniel's explanation is the correct one. The past and the future CANNOT be changed, with the possible exception of Desmond.
great read, as always, Vozzek! I totally agree, this sceneario (the plot of the previous seasons) has been played many times, but this is the 1st time the events' outcome turns out to be different. I think it's because Des was there this time and he turned that damn fail safe key.
Jin is either a Superman, or the island is not ready to let him go. the island needs a reason for Sun to come back and this is Jin.
even after 3 seasons and counting, I simply get a sheer joy from Ben's lines' delivery!
I can't believe how people still ties anyting to the same questions over and over again. Since S1 people still theorieze about the numbers, the apparitions, the whispers, etc... these don't have explanations. Not even rational. Deal with it, and stop blaming time-travel for everything.
Walt's appearances and any other dead characters (w/ excepcion of jack's dad and eko's brother)and the whispers were just the way of the show to bring mystery, suspense etc. Or are you going to say that Duckette also timetraveled to the Island and whispered to Sawyer? Please.
i think the ppl on the other canoe shooting at Locke and company are the O6 trying to get their attention
God, Vozzek, do you watch the same show? I guarantee you when all is said and done with this show, you'll see how wrong your assumptions were. There is only one timeline, Danielle always met Jin in the past. Guaranteed. Those time flashes seem to last a few hours max. Would you remember someone you had met for only a few hours 16 years ago?
Besides the fact, in the future, Danielle is kind of insane.
I don't agree that O6 off-Island life will be cancelled when they return to the Island. Whatever happened happened. That includes O6 3 years. Otherwise Ji Yeon wouldn't be born. Sayid wouldn't kill those guys. You can't take back what already happened. It's against the rules set by the writers. Alternatives timelines will not be introduced in Lost. "Another life" reference is not an alternative life. It's about seeing people at different times because of the Island's time jumps. What makes the Island complicated is the people traffic. I hope we don't see Lost ending with an another crash. That would be a letdown for me.
From the sounds of the comments, it seems like other people who read these recaps are thinking along the same lines as me, thank god.
I'm pretty sure Dalrton said there'd only be one timeline otherwise it'd get too convoluted.
Unless they lied. Which is not unlikely.
DarkUfo no no no the oceanic six come back to the island in the future on the Ajira airplane land on the hydra station island use the canoes to get to the main island to find nobody there they proceed into the island, here is where locke and company show up from the past and get in the boat and head towards the orchid. Now in a future episode we see the viewpoint of the oceanic six and they see that one of the boats is gone and sayid sees people riding one of the boats and head towards them thinking possibly that they are bad guys. Sayid proceeds to start shooting at lockes company, when juliet shoots back. So basically last nights episode we are seeing the oceanic six chasing locke and company. Thats my theory what do you think?
thats why they were working on a runway because ben knew they would need it...
just one note: i think we realy saw the future in that scenne on the camp beach, And i think that ajira airways botle indicates that this hapens after the O6 return to the island! So they time traveled to a period where the ajira airways flight 316 where the O6 were traveling had already crashed the island! I need to belivie this because i realy don't want to see another set of losties turning up in this other crash!
Some thots:
Vozz ~ "Valentine's day comes a week early for Sun, as Charles Widmore sends her the Whitman Assassin Sampler. Feeding on Sun's growing anger toward Ben Linus, it initially looks like Widmore hopes to use her as a killing tool. But more likely I think, is that Widmore knows it's not that easy. Although he sent the gun, I'm pretty sure Widmore knows any plan to assassinate Ben Linus is doomed to fail."
Bens - " … and/or it changes the rules, which they both know can’t change."
----------------------
Vozz - "And while we're talking about Walt and Harper showing up at various points in time, let's talk about the rain. The skipping explains the rain. It rained when Harper showed up... it rained when Walt spoke to Shannon. It rained because these people were time-skipping, and it stopped raining shortly afterward. Need more proof? It rained when Alpert came to see and test young Locke. It rained when the freighter crew arrived on the island, because they had to skip through time (31 minutes to be exact). It rained when Desmond's boat arrived on the island, and even in this episode when the canoe jumped. And yes, it's rained numerous other times as well... but who knows what skips and jumps might've happened those times that we don't yet know about?"
Bens - "However… it does NOT rain when Locke leaves Alpert at the Other camp in “Jughead”…. So I’m guessing rain is but one factor of time-skipping; and more probably a specific instance of related rain-based events to the time-skippers trapped within. Some are skipping within the rain, and some are skipping related to other non-rain events. Perhaps these are instances of life paths or time paths which are not resolved within the historical component of time. But, more simply, maybe rain means time-skipping INTO the PAST and no rain means time-skipping INTO the FUTURE."
----------------------
Vozz - "Sawyer turned over a new leaf, Charlie got sober, even Michael made good (at least partially) for the things he'd done. Maybe Ben's redemption involves washing his filthy lying mouth out with some anti-bullshit soap. "
Bens - The Island is a Place of Role-Reversal...
Is the Island a place where lives are lived in reversed fashion to their “real” off-island lives?
• Kate no longer flees, she stays and fights;
• Jack no longer is indecisive, he willfully commands leadership;
• Locke is no longer a joke and gaffe in life; he’s a serious doer with serious knowledge that people must use;
• Sayid no longer seeks truth from his victims, he is the truth-bearer defending life, liberty and justice;
• Hurley is no longer the cowardly lion, but the man-lion with an awesome mane willing to step in and defend his friends!
• Sawyer is no longer the long-con guy, he’s become a redeemed man who seeks to protect those at risk;
• Ben no longer is lying like he does on the island, off the island he only speaks truth.
----------------------
Vozz - "What we saw this episode was a really cool, really dark mirror universe of our existing storyline. It happened very fast, and we weren't meant to see much. Reality turns out to be a very thinly veiled curtain on LOST, and the writers are yanking on it. But their story is their story, and it totally rocks."
Bens - Like Vozz, I've been saying all along that the island can generate multiple life paths with multiple instances of outcome. However, none of those paths may affect the outcomes of their parallel sisters. Unfortunately, I think this type of theory goes back to the Purgatory theory of season 1 which I really wouldn't want to see as an ultimate explanation. Nor do I want to see a nicely wrapped "Quantum Theory" explanation of multiple time life-paths. But this then leaves us with a Stephen King explanation in all of its darkness and warpedness. This too, at least for me, would be unsatisfying as well. So, I only can see three major theories on time and interference and inter-relatedness at this point and any other theories to me seem to be merely restatements of these theories. Am open to suggestion for any others.
-------------------------
Vozz - "I just hope the last scene of LOST doesn't end with a new set of characters getting on a new plane in India...."
Bens - "And I might add that seeing Jack open his eyes from lying unconscious on the beach ofter the plane crash would be a similar horror-scenario for me. It only bespeaks a morbid view of time as being pedantically cyclical and without any rationality or reason. More an instance of non-state-ism, or non-humanity, where life no longer holds promise and portends goodness. Its all dark and meaningless and we're trapped like rats within the time-box of a maze."
I think you're way off on a lot of your theories here. I really think you're over-thinking everything.
yeah joana i said something similiar...
oceanic six is chasing locke's crew which we will see in a future episode
Vozz- Thanks for the recap- love your musings- really look forward to them after each show!
wow, is all I can say.I loved this epi.some things may end up dispointing me but i still love it lol.
i posted a very similar theory yesterday about the people on boat being the 06. and that juliet shot one of them and were gonna sees he shot a lostie. :)
thejwac is right.
There is only ONE timeline.
In her past, Danielle always met Jin.
Another solid post Voz.
I believe that "forgetting" may be one of the key mechanisms that allows information to travel through time and for paradox to be avoided. It is an essential grease.
Lost time-travel seems to break down into:
1) Permanent Feature: It always happened like that.
2) Perturbation: Events differing from the original.
Perturbations are resolved in one of two ways:
a) Course Correction (a 'butterfly effect' canceling force): makes the same ends from different means. Forgetting is one way for changes to 'disappear' and the course to be corrected
b) Hail Mary: the effect of the perturbation lies dormant until it can emerge at a point in time where change CAN happen. (e.g. Faraday's communication to future Desmond.)
A time traveler can transmit information to the future (where things CAN change) by hiding something or telling someone who buries it in their memory (temporary forgetting).
On another note:
It seems like the "flashes" happen just when an unresolvable paradox is about to occur.
I think the theory with the O6 being in the canoe shooting at the island
group is interesting and seems like a logical way of thinking after they
found that waterbottle with the airline logo on it.
I still believe we are in the future in that clip but it might have been
the O6 that took the Saturn - if it still was ok of course - or they are
in the jungle. Because one thing that makes me doubt the theory of it being
O6 in the canoe - is - when next flash is coming - the island people
loose the pursuing canoe. And would O6 not be travelling in time like
the rest of their friends? - Or is there a theory of what happens to O6
when they return to the island - could they for some reason not be
affected by the time-flashes going on ?
Also if they wanted to stop their friends why would they shoot at them
the way they did - they never tried to shout at them or anything.
You should really learn the difference between imply and infer.
Where did you get the idea that other characters are skipping around in time? Are we even watching the same show?
Interesting last sentence in Vozzek69's review. I think it's a possibility that a new crew of characters crash landing on an Ajira airplane may well be the end of the series. And what if it's Locke standing in the Othersville this time looking up and saying, "there may well be survivors" . . .
First, I'm glad that the compass paradox seems resolved. If we allow for two compasses (and indeed two of the same character) to exist at the same time, then everything works out tidily.
I've thought about the idea that the people in the second canoe may have a relation to our time-travelling crew, and that heck, a future copy of one of the characters may reside in that second canoe. Or, it may just be the returning O6 chasing after them.
It seems that Desmond will be the key to everything in the end, and that his choices, which led to the season 3 finale, will have more implications than we ever thought. Although I'm not convinced that we're going to get a whole new timeline due to his delaying of Charlie's death, it's possible that this changed a few events in the past. If indeed Desmond can alter the flow of history, then a newly established future would need a corrected past to make sense. We may very well see that Desmond's future behavior has a concrete and observable effect on past events.
There's always talk in science fiction of an effect where the timeline gets altered because of time-traveling to the past. This gives the idea that a series of past events leads to an inevitable future. But this needs to be self-consistent. A series of future events implies a well-defined past. Hence, if the rules of time-travel don't bind Desmond, then his behavior in the future could redefine aspects of the past. I don't think we'll see the sweeping changes suggested in the post, but small corrections, such as Faraday meeting Desmond while he's still in the hatch, seem possible.
This may not come to pass, but it's an interesting thought of applying cause and effect on a historic time line, and requiring a sense of self-consistency, and what may happen when some outside influence (Desmond) can perturb this history.
"Ditto for Sawyer, awestruck at seeing his past friends, lovestruck at seeing Kate, and completely powerless to do anything 'BUT WATCH'."
When I read it I thought about words that Cindy (captured by the Others) said to Jack when he was in cage (Hydra station). She said: "We are here to watch". So the captured survivors are spectators of events which will happen in the future. That mean the Others know whats going on and they don't want anybody to disturb a course of events. I assuming that everything what happend should happen, even "rescue" boat (with Micheal and bad guys).
I thought maybe it was the O6 shooting at them in the canoe, but I wouldn't put any money on it.
I'd like to assume the sickness was Danielle's team becoming unstuck in time, not along with the other Losties when the island jumps, but in the way Desmond was unstuck in time, which would explain why they all died and Danielle didn't. Because she didn't become unstuck, like Desmond became unstuck but Frank and Sayid didn't.
I will have to re-watch the ep., but weren't there two canoes on shore, both of which seat six comfortably? I can't imagine the conversation of the Oceanic 6 on deciding between one canoe and two: "We could all fit in one canoe and share the rowing or we could split into two groups of three, kill ourselves rowing, but have an extra canoe when we arrive in case someone steals one."
I alos doubt that shooting at someone with a gun is an acceptable way to get someone's attention.
Anyone thought that maybe Juliet was shooting at herself? Maybe the timelines overlap at some point.
Voz is off his game today.
"If Danielle's group had originally pulled Jin from the ocean, wouldn't she have recognized him all those years later when she met the 815 survivors back in Season One? But she didn't. And the fact that she didn't could very well mean that things have changed. Just as Richard doesn't recognize Locke later on, just as Ethan didn't seem to recognize him either... these future-to-past meetings seem to indicate that this is the first time these changes have occurred - at least within this time loop.
Desmond's changes (keeping Charlie alive long enough to make the island visible) to the original pre-destined timeline ended up bringing in the freighter and allowed the Oceanic Six to leave the island. The result: everything that happens afterward is happening for the very first time."
Ummm, no. Not even close. We don't know that people didn't recognize their respective time travelers. Just because they didn't say anything? This is LOST. Since when do people say everything they know?
Also:
"It rained because these people were time-skipping, and it stopped raining shortly afterward. Need more proof? It rained when Alpert came to see and test young Locke."
Why does Vozzek think Richard is time traveling? We've already established that he's just old. He's not time traveling!
@ Rob, why would she want to shoot herself?
Great read, as usual. The only thing I disagree on is a new plane crash with NEW survivors. I do agree that the Ajira airways bottle is from a newer, more recent plane crash. However...Flight 518? I dunno...how about flight 316? Hmmm?
Vozzek mentions the fact of Claire's psychic telling her that she must raise Aaron, however, I fail to see how this is relevant. The psychic later admits to Eko that he is a fraud with no real psychic abilities, meaning that when he told her this it wasn't a dire prediction, but it was for his own self-interest. The only mystery is whether he intended for Claire to reach LA, or if he intended for her to end up on the island and have Aaron there. Either way, I doubt it was psychic abilities that motivated him to warn Claire, as it seems more likely he was motivated by profit.
Not that it matters but here is what i think. i think that when the O6 left they jolted time.. fruit basket upset. If they do not come back they will ultimalty run into themselves which would be the end of reality as we know it. they would cese to exist.. it's like 2-2=0.. God help us all! I think that the 06 will return on flight "316", just like the people before when who left.. I think that that situations recycle themselves just with fdiffrent people... which would expalain an episode that comes up "he's Our you". When the flight lands crashes.. whatever.. jack, Hurley, aaron, kate, Sun and sayid will be taken by the other.. who will be the knew Losties. The new Losties will think, just like the 815ers did that the others are the enemy and in the confusion war is waged! it is obvious that there is always confusion about who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.. i think it is all just a misunderstanding. When ben returns he will take Jacobs place Locke will take Ben's place doing what he can to keep people from leaving upseting the fruit basket again. They will also take people who can help them develop the island. That's all I got right now. I think this is a solid theory?!?!
First off, to everyone saying that Vozzek is "overthinking" I think that is what their job is to do. I mean I expect reviewers to overthink for me so I don't have to. This way I pick up on things that I didn't notice. Whether I agree with the theories or not is another issue.
On that note, the theory that I really did enjoy was the one about Ajira Airlines being a flight from another group of survivors. I've been saying for quite a while that I think it'd be cool for season 6 to focus on the losties now being the "others" to a new group of survivors. In that scenario we basically get to see everything from the Others point of view. So this would leave us for explanation as to the different things that the others do to and know about our losties. By that I mean the files that contain all the information, Jacob's lists, etc. My original thought about the Ajira Airlines was that its the O6 coming back, but what really bothered me was: why would they completely trash their own beach camp? I would find it unlikely for the left behinders to end up saying "hey you guys are back, let's throw a huge party at our camp and eat and drink everything we have." I find it more likely that another group of survivors would show up and say "look there is food over here, we are hungry let's eat it before the other people come back." Vozzek made the Goldilocks reference, which I feel like is the exact mindset as to what could go on in a new group of survivors' heads.
My final thought here is the idea that most of these transition episodes are mediocre. I completely agree with that. Last night after I saw the episode I thought "well that was boring and uneventful" but the more thought I put into the episode the more I realized that it is a lot like There's no place like home, part 1. That episode was also a transition episode, but the difference was that we all knew we had the always pleasing finale coming up next. With this episode we are venturing into the unexpected. How good The Little Prince was will all depend on how good the next episode is. Sort of like bowling a strike. You get the initial points for the strike, but the overall value of that strike depends on the next frame. We got the initial feeling for The Little Prince, but the overall value of the episode depends on the next one.
I thought maybe it was the O6 shooting at them in the canoe, but I wouldn't put any money on it.
I'd like to assume the sickness was Danielle's team becoming unstuck in time, not along with the other Losties when the island jumps, but in the way Desmond was unstuck in time on the freighter, which would explain why they all died and Danielle didn't. Because she didn't become unstuck, like Desmond became unstuck but Frank and Sayid didn't.
and the fact Danielle didn't recognise Jin doesn't imply that they CAN change the past, or create multiple time lines, 'cause she would have obviously assumed he wasn't the same man they rescued 16 years ago, because in her mind he would have aged 16 years.
and in my eyes, Richard's visit to Locke throughout his life, with the compass etc. would imply they actually can't change the past. and everything that they do when the island jumps to the past happened all along.
Maybe we should all watch "Do No Harm" again and see if we spy Sawyer with a gun in the background while Claire is giving birth? ;)
I really dont think it was the O6 shooting at Locke and co. It just doesn't make sense
I really like what you have to say, but I'm gonna have to disagree with just the last part. I don't think that it is another point of survivors. I think it is the boat that the Oceanic 6 bring back. I think they fly on Ajira and end up rowing the boat to the island. There is a skirmish after some celebration and they run off. I think that the people shooting at them, were actually survivors of 815.. either the Oceanic 6 or it is a boat full of... well... them. Juliet and Sawyer could be firing at themselves b/c they see the boat, whom they think is the enemy... again. Does that make sense?
Nothing is changing.
1 timeline, only 1.
Locke was always in Ethan and Richard past.
Jin was always in Danielle past.
Only desmond is different in this situation. Only him can seriously change something.
I think I don't like this week "paradox" of being two of each one.
Last week I said I loved the way they were playing time travel like "12 Monkeys" did, but now I need Darlton to make me trust them. I don't want Locke, Sawyer or whoever to find himself and interfere with the past, like Jin meeting Rousseau. I hope he'll play a pivotal twist game changer role of something we didn't know yet, and not just a pasive-looking only role.
Mr. Floppy -
The time travel is still playing out just as it did in "12 Monkeys". Bruce Willis was sent back to change the past, but he couldn't, and it was fated that he couldn't because he, as a child, had already seen himself die, thus failing in his mission to stop the plague.
I don't think Jin will be around long enough to change the past of the French team. And most everything (I think at least Jack and Aaron were supposed to be on the Island) is playing out as is was supposed to. If you rewatch season 1, the timejumping makes sense.
I think, I am the only one person who actually wants lost to end up with "seeing Jack open his eyes from lying unconscious on the beach ofter the plane crash". i don't know why, perhaps the irony of it, or perhaps because of the hope that each time they come closer to doing what they are supposed to do...
the real question right now for me is that how the presence of O6 will make everything ok? is it their actual physical presence, or their energy, magnetic fields of each person, or just that they come and stay on the island at their own will? if they are the island's constants? or part of the Valenzetti equation (if i am so pissed they don't really incorporate that into the TV show...yet)
aaa, I love Lost!!!!
Here's what I noticed tonight...
1.
The time-skipping record is actually a countdown clock using the infamous numbers as sequences. The 1954 Other camp; Daniel Rousseau from 16 years ago; the off-island O6 who are 3 years into the future; the hatch light 3 months ago; etc, etc.
First the time sequence was in large swings forwards and back; and now, the time sequence seems to be shortening up like an unwound clock pendulum. The quicker the strokes the more deadly it will get for the Freighties.
Some speculations - I don't know if the Black Rock ship will ever be explained nor the 4-toed statue unless it later becomes Sawyer; and the ship, Charles Widmore's first contact with the island through a distant relative, the captain of the Black Rock.
1b.
The street intersection was in black-and-white, as were the cars and people's clothing. Also there were 8 pedestrians on the top side crossing and maybe 12 on the other side (4+8).
2.
I'm beginning to think that baby Charles from Des and Penny is actually Charles Widmore who knows his daughter is his mom. That would be wierd but would account for his refusal to interfere with them.
3.
I really, really, really wish that Jin would simply cap Benny and be done with all of his smurfy explanations! He's evil and needs to go. And I think he also has a healthy regard for dear ol' Smokey which is protecting the island from him!
4.
I still don't trust Juliet. Not ever.
5.
Who are the guys trying to catch Sayid? I still think its Widmore's guys so that they can reprogram him to kill Benny.
6.
The Kate-Jack-Sawyer thing is getting old for me. She needs to make up her mind if its either or both!
7.
The Sawyer as Christ figure continues to grower stronger and stronger for me each week. He seems to be the one who will make the ultimate sacrifice at some future date for the good of the island and at his demise.
8.
Could "the eye" in Jacob's hut be that of John Locke's after all? Is John the one trapped in time trying to get out?
9.
Why didn't Locke's group SINK the other outrigger before they left? Probably no time but just think if they had taken the ZODIAC and run out of gas!!! They'd all be dead now.
10.
Was Daniel's science group the original Freighties from Widmore before Faraday's group? Or, were they sucked into the island like Desmond and the Oceanic Survivors needing to serve some greater "Island"-purpose?
BENS
ok, so I can't spell...
pt 10 - daniel is dannielle rousseau !!
Was Danielle Rousseau's science group the original Freighties from Widmore before Daniel Faraday's group? Or, were they sucked into the island like Desmond and the Oceanic Survivors needing to serve some greater "Island"-purpose?
BENS
Okay, so after meeting Richard and dealing with the bomb, they decide to go back for the boat and sail around for the Orchid. Except their boat is gone, the camp is back but in disarray and the canoes are there instead. Wouldn't their boat be back in the previous flash point on the beach where they left it? It wouldn't travel with them unless they were in it. So... could the other canoe carry Losties, including lovable Bernard and Rose.. and maybe they fire on Locke and others thinking it is the arrow folks they were running from in the first place in the previous flash. Especially if some of them are confused as some of us!
I don't know if others (ha) have said this but I think you may be mistaken about the whole, why doesn't Rosseau remember Jin, is it because something happened in the meantime to make her forget, thing.
Remember when Faraday went back and told Desmond to find his mother? "Future" Desmond didn't remember it until the moment Faraday did it in the past because it technically hadn't happened yet. So similarly, Jin hadn't washed up in the past yet, so future Danielle wouldn't have remembered him. If she was still alive in the present, with the time traveling group, she would suddenly remember meeting Jin in the past.
Get me?
I dont agreee with vokeez theory but the sow has already proved time can be changed. Desmond is perfect example. charlie was suppose to die but he was saved long enough to allow him to press button and let freighters in etc.
ms hawkings had to force desmond to go becasue she knew if he didnt things would be bad.
"Things I Noticed"? I really think this should be called "Things I Missed."
First of all, the explanation doesn't defeat the paradox, because if future Richard is giving Locke a compass and then, in the past, receives it while already having an identical compass, thus having two, how many does he have in the future when he gives Locke the compass? Two? Then, after giving Locke one, he now has one left over. Which means all this solution to the paradox does is add a weird extra compass that pops into existence just to be traded through time. It really makes no sense.
Additionally, I'm pretty amazed with the idea people have that Jin can somehow be experiencing the same time shifts that the Heroes of Time on the Island are. For this to happen, he would have had to float close enough to the Island between the time the freighter exploded and the Island moved. How long was that? Less than the time it takes a helicopter to cover the distance. No, it seems to me that Jin floated into the Island's previously explained time dilation field but at an unsafe bearing that brought him 16 years into the past. Just like Daniel's clock; just like the boat's Doctor. Still, he would have to get to the field fast enough, but it's less of a stretch than Jin strapping rockets to his door, traveling 5 miles to the Island and then passing out during the time flashes.
You're right, Charlotte.
This weekend I think I'll watch 12 Monkeys again. I need it :P
I think Danielle Rousseau would definitely remember Jin, people on here are saying "yeah they only met for an hour or so, 16 years later she would never remember him etc etc" but of course she would, she has just washed up on a strange island with an unconscious Asian man they pulled from the sea, who says he was from some other boat that sank, then he suddenly dissappears infront of her (when he skips in time), no way would u forget that. And think about how many people/faces she will have seen in those 16 years, a handfull of others, her dead science team, and thats about it. so she's not likely to forget him.
LOL wee.
@brennan: Jin IS travelling in time like the other friends on the Islands.
Probably the timeshift is a sort of cupole and it take the island and part of the sea, not the sky so not the helicopter.
(Sorry for the english, it's not my language)
"First of all, the explanation doesn't defeat the paradox, because if future Richard is giving Locke a compass and then, in the past, receives it while already having an identical compass, thus having two, how many does he have in the future when he gives Locke the compass? Two? Then, after giving Locke one, he now has one left over. Which means all this solution to the paradox does is add a weird extra compass that pops into existence just to be traded through time. It really makes no sense."
The compass problem is not a paradox as long as Richard is careful with which compass he hands off to Locke. It works as follows. Richard comes into possession of the compass at some point. We call this compass A. In 1954, Locke comes back into time and hands off the time-traveled compass. Call this compass B (time-traveled version of A). When Richard meets Locke in the 90s to fix his shot leg, he hands him compass A. Compass B, which has looped once, stays in Richard's posession. Although they're physically identical, time-wise the two compasses are not. One's proper time is farther ahead than the other. Now, if Richard were handing off compass B to Locke, such that it only exists in a never-ending loop, then I agree, that's a pretty big problem. But that can't logically make sense. The compass only goes through one loop.
Please note though that compass A and compass B are the same physical compass. The labels A & B are simply there to help differentiate the compass into two time eras, before the loop and after the loop.
brennan, Jin is absolutely jumping with the other losties. He didn't need to make it all the way to the island to start jumping, only within the radius of the "bubble". Daniel and the Zodiac weren't on the island when it disappeared either, but they were on the water within the bubble. If you remember, just before the freighter exploded it was moved closer to the island. Thus, it's completely reasonable to assume that Jin was within the bubble. (Besides, don't you think it's a bit too coincidental that Jin would wind up with the Frenchies at the exact moment that the others jumped to a time period with French wreckage on the beach?)
wee, no one is saying that Danielle completely forgot about the Asian man who washed up with them and then disappeared. But it's completely reasonable to assume that over the course of 16 years she might have forgotten exactly what he looked like. Thus, when she saw Jin (do we even have proof that Danielle did see Jin?), she might had thought to herself, "Hey, that Asian man looks a little bit like that other Asian guy I met 16 years ago." But a vague remembrance of what he looked like is not enough to get her to put the pieces together and figure out that he must be traveling through time.
Why is the canoe traveling with them? they found it in an other time period. I see no sci-fi disbelief model consistent in wich they would time jump like that and the canoe would follow when convenient - unless its all controlled by a supreme entity. Wich would suck so much.
Rousseau never experienced time travel, so she did not have a time-travel mindset so she just never made the connection between Jin and that other asian guy, semi-conscious, english-speaking and with a sunburned face she saw for an hour 16 years ago. Its easy for us to spot these thing because we know its a tv show with time-travel, Danielle do not. Or maybe she did recognise him after all and she told him something that we will see in a flashback.
BTW interesting that they were 6-seated canoes. The 6 who left, Locke's crew of 6 on the island, the 6 numbers, 6 Dharma stations, 6 seasons of Lost, even Danielle's Crew was clearly stated as 6. And the trivia sections state that the statue was originally intended to have 6 toes but changed to 4 because 6 was not easily noticeable as wrong but 4 were.
How fast they turn on you when they don't agree, huh? Can't believe how rude some of you are being to vozzek.
Thank you for a great recap, per usual. You were right on point about everything except I don't agree with you completely in regards to there being two time lines in a sense but they DO need to explain why Ethan did not remember Locke. Why Danielle did not even glance questioningly at Jin.
Sure, you can use the "they just forgot" excuse but that's just lazy writing and I expect better.
"but they DO need to explain why Ethan did not remember Locke"
Who says that Ethan didn't remember Locke? Ethan made a point of spending time hunting with Locke. Obviously, since Ethan was undercover, it's not like he was going to be telling Locke or anyone else about it. I can very clearly imagine Ethan going to Ben or Richard a few days after he had infiltrated the survivors and saying, "I found him. He's finally here."
"Why is the canoe traveling with them?"
Because it was in physical contact with them. Same reason the Zodiac came with Daniel. Same reason the compass came with Locke. Same reason their clothes are coming with them. This was clearly explained in the season premiere. Pay attention.
Great read Vozzek. And ditto for the ensuing comments! :)
Whether significant or otherwise, that observation about the rain justifies the 'things I noticed' title.
No mention that Miles is obviously Pierre Chang (Dr. Marvin Candle, Dr. Mark Wickmund and Dr. Edgar Halliwax) son. It makes senses, explains the nose bleeds and why he has been to the island before. Obviously was sent off just before the purge.
I realize a brief meeting w/Jin might not be remembered by most people 16 years later ...BUT...
If you meet some guy who you just dragged out of the ocean and then he suddenly DISAPPEARS before your eyes, I'm thinking that yes, you would remember him.
Granted, we haven't seen Jin go through a flash, but if it is anything like Locke disappearing in front of Richard, you can bet most people would remember that person. And, even if Jin doesn't disappear before Danielle's eyes, I think most people would remember the night their boat crashed and picking up some guy on a board in the ocean...it was a significant event. We tend to remember those.
As one person said, perhaps she would only think Jin looked like the guy she pulled out of the ocean, but I'm betting it would cause some sort of memory flash for her.
Oh dear...Wee, I somehow missed your post and said almost the same thing! Sorry.
Thanks Vozz. I really enjoy reading your theories even though some are a little far-fetched (your writing is excellent). I automatically assumed that Ajira Bottle Timeline was the thing that was going to happen, but not that it could be a possible future.
@lostrocks - you mentioned Rose and Bernard! I've been wondering where they are since the flaming arrow scene. Did they get hit then and we just didn't see it? I sure hope not!
hi, abou this all O6, writers decided to make this already in season 2, and what is more important, writers said, that they make this all in s2 and s3, it all a little boring bc of it, that they didn´t know, when Lost will end. But when they knew it, they started to make real their intention.
about Jack-Kate-Sawyer, I´m sure, that I always have been with Jack and Kate, maybe they will not be lovers, it´s a little sad, but I´m glad, that they had many sweet scenes in this episode and they will get another scenes in future again, I think, that Kate really loves Sawyer and it´s for sure, that he really loves her.
Carrie said... @lostrocks - you mentioned Rose and Bernard! I've been wondering where they are since the flaming arrow scene. Did they get hit then and we just didn't see it? I sure hope not! Friday, February 06, 2009 1:53:00 AM
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I doubt they died... TPTB would not kill them off without even showing it.
The actors are generally rarely available but I suspect they're alive somewhere in the forest bickering at other :)
Okay, if O6 were chasing after Locke and company, then Juliet may or may not have shot one of the 06 members in the chest. I think she did actually hit one of the Ajira chasers right before the flash, killing someone. Hopefully, it's someone other group of survivors and not O6.
I don't understand why so many think the O6 are on the second canoe. They're tailing the canoe with Locke etc, which means they left the beach pretty much straight after Locke & crew left, possibly even recognize people on the first canoe, and just start shooting at them? My guess is that it's either the leftovers from Keamy's crew (not all of them died, did they?) or a whole new bunch of people, possibly even natives from the Sunda area.
Another thing, when they're in the canoe and the timeflash occurs, I would expect Locke & crew to be floating in water after the flash. How come the canoe time-travelled with them? is it because they have physical contact with the boat? If they travelled back in time the canoes wouldn't have been on the island; if they travel forward I'd expect the boat to be somewhere else.
As for Danielle not recognizing Jin in the future, I think Spotted Duck's explanation is spot on.
Everyone ---- Listen Up! -- Please let me know what you think about this . . .
I just rewatched the episode and want to say:
We NEVER saw Miles' nosebleed. He said he had a nosebleed, but we never saw any evidence of it! Which means, he lied. He's never been on the island before. He was just trying to get info out of Faraday.
Am I wrong?
Also, did Jin actually ever meet Rousseau? I can't remember.
Thanks for the help.
Props Vozzek! I always enjoy hearing good thought out theories! That is the great thing about Lost... who knows if any of our theories are right or wrong - that is the fun part - we have the opportunity to become creative as well! Keep producing your theories and I'll keep reading - they really are a blast!
Oh and yes Maria - we see blood on Miles' hand after he wipes his face (unless the blood is coming from somewhere else, but I find that unlikely) - and - I was just discussing that same thing on regards to Jin earlier today with a friend - and we were not exactly sure if Rousseau had actually seen Jin on the island in previous seasons... so it is totally plausible that there is no issue with her meeting Jin at this instance (I'll have to check to make sure though!).
"Another thing, when they're in the canoe and the timeflash occurs, I would expect Locke & crew to be floating in water after the flash. How come the canoe time-travelled with them?"
Do people not read the other comments? This has been answered several times here already. If you are making physical contact with an object when a flash occurs, it comes with you. Daniel clearly explained this when the Zodiac didn't disappear.
"As for Danielle not recognizing Jin in the future, I think Spotted Duck's explanation is spot on."
No, Spotted Duck's explanation is incorrect. He assumes that changes in the timeline are possible, but the show has made it very clear that the timeline cannot be changed, that things have happened exactly as they have always happened. Thus, there was never a timeline in which Danielle and Jin didn't meet. If we see them meeting in 1988, it means that they ALWAYS met in 1988. (As Daniel explained, Desmond is an exception to this rule. Thus, you can't use Desmond's situation to explain everything else.)
Points taken, zorro. I read quite a lot about Lost, but completely missed out on Faraday's explanation. Also your previous posts missed me as there was quite some time between opening this article and posting a comment. Guess I saw a little purplish flash myself :)
It still doesn't make sense to me though. Assume Locke was shaking Richards (or young Widmores) hand during a flash, would Richard/Widmore time-travel along with him, or does this 'touching rule' not apply to people? Or, if there was a loose paddle in the canoe, would it too travel through time? And if so, wouldn't the ocean have to come along too? Also, if the canoe has time-travelled with Locke and companions, wouldn't that effectively mean that history (or the future) has changed (slightly), as the boat is no longer in its original timeframe? I know it's just sci-fi and not exact science, but it still bugs me :)
Spotted Duck's explanation seemed logical, but I agree with you that the past could not have changed, therefore Danielle always met Jin. I guess by the time she met the survivors of flight 815 she was too messed up to remember, althoug wee makes a strong point that she does. I guess I'd have to go with Kellogg then. The bastards never tell us anything...
I don't get why people think that Ethan does not remember Locke. What would have happened if back in S1 Ethan said to Locke "Hey, baldhead, I met you a few years ago, and I shot you. I think you were from the future. Oh, yeh, I'm not from the plane"? Why would the writers tell us in early season (or even in S3 or S4 when we knew Locke was the chosen on / future leader) that Locke had appear in the Island's past? It would have ruined the whole concept of this seasn time skipping thing.
@Spotted Duck: Your explanation is the most plausible of all.
He never assumed that changes in the timeline are possible. He just assumed that people might remember past encounters only when it will technically happen.
When Desmond remembered his encounter with Faraday, this did not change the past yet, only what Desmond will intend to do might change the past. I believe Desmond is the only one who can change something, not the only one who can remember. Pure remembering of an event does not mean that something will change. Ethan, Danielle did not remember meeting Locke and Jin because they were already dead when it technically happened.
The only problem with this theory is Richard. He should have remembered his encounter with Locke only after 50 years or so. But he remembered it "normally", because he is present at Locke's birth after 2 years. So, either this theory is wrong, or Richard is also in a special category as Desmond. I can't wait for an encounter with a not dead or not that special person, that might clarify things.
Rousseau never seemed to want to hang around the Losties too much. Maybe she was spooked by them because she DOES remember Jin, but since she doesn't know about the time skipping she just thinks she is crazy. Why else would she prefer to live all alone?
I love your review, except for your thoughts on Jack and Kate. I absolutely love them now. I wasn't rooting for anyone since yesterday, and they got me. I read this from Jeff Jensen (EW) and i fully agree:
"I liked Kate's scenes with Jack. Here is a woman who not so much fell out of love with Jack but rather fell out of trust with him, if that makes sense. We saw her want to trust him again, and he seemed well on the road to earning that trust, too...until Kate saw Ben drive up and heard Jack say, It's okay, he's with us or something and she looked at him like, Are you freakin' high?! More on this next week."
Kate is not running, she's staying. And Jack is healing. I think they are heading for a big finale rogether.
Rousseau did not recognize Jin (in 2004) because she almost never saw him. Just watch the episodes - they never met.
Even if they DID meet. Danielle, not being aware of time travel, assumes it couldn't be the same guy because he would have aged 16 years. Simple.
"He never assumed that changes in the timeline are possible. He just assumed that people might remember past encounters only when it will technically happen."
Well, if no changes in the timeline are possible, then Jin and Danielle meeting "technically happened" in 1988. From Jin's point of view of course, his experience of meeting Danielle in 1988 happened after his experience of 2004, but for Danielle, her experience of meeting Jin really and truly happened in 1988. Thus she would have remembered it from the moment it happened. People need to stop using Desmond (who's an anomaly) to explain what's happening with everyone else.
I've yet to see actual proof that Jin and Danielle saw each other in 2004. Even if they saw each other briefly, I think 16 years of insanity is enough explanation about why Danielle doesn't connect the dots. Think about it, if you saw someone who looks a bit like someone you met briefly 16 years ago, what are you more likely to think: "Hey, that person kinda reminds me of that other person I met a long time ago?" or "Hey, that person must be some kind of time traveler. I better go tell him about it."?
Does it bother anyone else that Young Danielle is portrayed by an actress who looks about 30 years younger than 2005 Danielle. If only 16 years passed, they could have easily used the same actress in both times. I want to think that Danielle is Daniel's mother. Anyone else have any comments on this idea?
This is off base for this thread, but I'm looking for some input.
I agree that it was exciting to see Jin and Rousseau again, however another interesting character that we've seen return this season is Dr. Pierre Chang.
It was apparant from his apperance that he was not only the star of those riveting Dharma instructional videos, but that he also held some kind of major leadership position with Dharma. Do his Lost career end here? It could be argued that his presence simply was a way to show that:
1.) He had a child (whomever it might be)
2.) Farraday was on the island prior to present time
3.) Hard labor on the island gets you little pay and a fried brain.
Also, what is up with his choice of on screen names?:
Dr. Marvin CANDLE
Dr. Mark WICKmund
Dr. Edgar HalliWAX
Can we confirm that he was "purged"?
Am I overthinking this?
cadreamin -
You have to remember that Rousseau was living in the jungle for 16 years without access to sunscreen, moisturizers, or facials. She never found the Dharma Day Spa station.
Zorro - I couldn't agree with you more about Rousseau! She was totally nutty as of 2004 - however, I think that from now on when I see someone I recognize I am going to immediately confront them as time travelers :) that is too funny!
Robin - (this has probably already been stated but...)I think the baby is Miles. That is why Daniel says "Are you sure?" when he asks if Miles has been to the island before... Second, I think the first scene where we see Daniel with Dharma is actually a scene where he is time traveling, similar to when we see Daniel confront Des. Third, I would never sign up to be a laborer for Dharma -- so true!
Charlotte - I love your comment - you're gonna look like you've been around the block a few times when you're living alone in some crazy bunker, while fighting off Others for 16 years! The "looking a little older" doesn't bother me a bit!
I'm so glad I found this site - you are all brilliant!!
I disagree about you compass theory.
It's my thought that the compass only exist once and is stuck in a cycle, perpetually getting older and more vintage. Richard also thinks the compass belongs to Locke so he asks him which one belongs to you in Cabin Fever(S04E11), meaning the compass. but baby Locke picks the knife.
Like all the adam and eve theories (that they are jake and kate) the compass is stuck in a cycle, maybe just like the island.
1) I thought we now know that the whispers were future LOSTies, that traveled back in time?
2) I am not sure if it has been said but I think Miles is Candlewax's (orientation videos guy) son.
"I just hope the last scene of LOST doesn't end with a new set of characters getting on a new plane in India..."
Really? You wouldn't want that? I think that would be freaking awesome. But I could see why some people wouldn't like it.
Anyway, I love your theory about flight "518".
I agree some of you are RUDE RUDE RUDE.. Vozz is not saying this is what happens.. simply that this could be a possible thoery...Ok so here is why I noted from the prior post. for all you nay sayers stick around for my scolding at the end of this post.
The Record SKIPPING WAS SYMBOLISIM!!What did u do when the record skipps... if you were lazy instead of getting up and moving the needle you tried to jump or bang on something so that it would skip the scratch. When Ben turned the Donkey wheel it caused a scratch in time. Locke and the gang left on the island are the needle the island is a record. They will keep going in circles on diffrent time lines.. They are only bumped off that timeline if they do something that will ultimatley change the out come.. the big picture.. not small changes. Time will corse correct itself.. and example of charlie being saved numeral times but ultimatley dying in the end.
PRIOR MEETINGS
Jin and Danielle AND Charlie and DESMOND>There are a couple things that could have happened here to explain.. we only have two options though..
1.Everything has happend before..
2.Everything is happening for the first time and will continue to change
#1 If everything has happened before there IS and explaination as to why Danielle doesn't recognize Jin. Jin does not speak english at all in the past! Danielle probably never spoke to him. I don't know if they even interact. So maybe danielle looks at him funny when they first meet and then realizes that he doesn't speak english... Oh I must have met some Other asian man.. to white people all ethnic people look alike ANYWAY.. I can say that I am ethnic and I have heard it before.. (by the way you guys all look alike too :0) jk.. kinda.)
How do we not know that Charlie didn't recognize Desmond after Desmond turned the fail safe key and jumped into the past and met Charlie out side Widmore's office? We don't There is ALOT that goes on this island that we don't see..right away. Maybe there was a conversation with desmond and Charlie where Charlie remembers Desmond or Desmond brings it up that they met.. Charlie remembers and that is why he trust Desmond and goes on to meet his death.. to save the others to save Desmond and help him meet Penny!?!
May be Richard did recognize Locke, and so did Ethan.. Ethan could have shot to kill Locke, but he shot him in the leg.. BTW I am tired of seeing Locke get injured in his leg. How else did Richard know to meet Locke in the woods with a first aid kit to give him instructions if it didn't happen before? That flask back was in the past because the plane wasn't burt yet. maybe he gives him the compass as part of a test to see if he truly believes what is going on. What if Richard did recognize Locke when he was standing next to young widmore.. Maybe Locke has to go through all of this in order to beable to fully understand the island and the become a leader. That could be why people are so hesitant to tell right away what is going on.. because they would not believe it.
#2 If everything is happening for the first time, it would mean that time is less of a loop and more like a parallell reality or alternate life time.. once your done in this life, you get dropped into another small things can be changed but won't change the big picture. for example.. if a life time was a maze a few extra turns does not change where the maze ends it just makes the maze more complex.. the ending stays the same. In that case if Danielle ment Jin now, .. if time is a maze, then when she sees him again when he crashes on the island in 2004 she will recognize him. Same with Charlie if it was a diffrent time line desmond skipped to then when that time line happens when they crash and meet Desmond, charlie will recognize him. then the next time around, Danielle would recognize Jin.. cause right now it didn't happen yet. So insteads of Locke and the islanders skipping through "time" it is actually them skipping through diffrent "times" and "life times".
For people who say we over anyalis, it is because you are not imaginative.. not a put down. over anaylising is part of what makes this show so interesting and compelling and if you listen to jj abrams talk he does the smae thing. he say that he like thinking about things allowing his mind to create solutions for what seem like impossible situations. THAT IS WHAT LOST IS ABOUT..!! for you all that watch lost and just allow the show to spoon feed you facts and eat the all ready processed food for though that we LOST FANATICS already chew up and spit out.. you are missing out on ALL the fun. This show is about problem solving .. so stoputting peoles ideas and imaginations down and imagine for yourself.. share and respect the process.. you might be suprised as to what is gonna happen.
Rachel, NO spoilers in the Non-Spoiler sections. Thank you
No! No more talk of Lost ending up with Jack opening his eyes on the beach. Did anyone read the Gunslinger series from Stephen King? The ending of that was so beyond disappointing, I cannot have my favorite series of books and my favorite TV show both be so disappointing that I do not want to revisit them!
Hey look.... Everyone is a critic, and everyone has their own opinions as to the story of this show. While I can't 100% agree with Vozz, there are some solid points.
I think for one, the man who shot at Sayid was in fact one of Ben's men. I think this because I believe Ben is still manipulating the 06 off island to get them to go back. And I think the fear of being "hunted" indefinately would certainly be one way of trying to get people to change their minds. Also, I think we are meant to take notice to the fact that, the man was shooting tranq. darts and not bullets. Nothing life threatening, just enough to knock someone out for a couple of hours and well, steal them away. Ben still works by manipulation, making people do what he wants them to do by changing the way they think and feel. My opinion, everyone who would like to jump on my back and beat me with my theory (lol)... do so now.... lol.
As for the plane, i'm gonna guess it is the 06 returning... or at least hope it's them until i'm proven otherwise.
And lastly, I challange anyone here to interact with someone in a stressful situation (when you are thinking and remembering even less than when you are in full capacity of yourself) and remember them from 16years ago AND think they haven't aged a bit! Ok, what I mean is, I was in a situation where a guy died next door to me. A neighbor I saw maybe... a couple times a month. He died on his patio outback, and I was one of the three that found him, notified, and talked to the police. It was a stressful event, and I remember that day.... 6 years later. Now, I can barley remember his face now, if I saw him today somewhere else in town, looking the same age when he died, I'm pretty sure I might even dismiss the thought because... he would be 6 years older, he would not look the same. (yeah, he was a youngish guy, the one that passed).
So are we saying we expect someone to go through a event, stressful event, meet a random stranger in although a unique situation, and 16 years from now, see this guy and think.... hey, i met that guy for a couple hours 16 years ago and he hasn't aged a bit!! It must be the same guy... how strange??!!! No, we wouldn't. Nor would a kid remember richard and think the same.
Think this, if you saw someone you went to kindergarden with, and interacted with everyday, and saw them today looking the same... would you remember them?
I think people not remembering situations that happened so long ago, is realistic. After all if fantasy doesn't have a ring of realism to it, how would anyone ever believe it could really happen?
For those of you who subscribe to a tie-in with Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series, who's the last gunslinger - Locke, Jack, or Desmond?
@Sheila -
That's a tough one. I would say it's either Locke or Desmond. I do not include Jack just because he's getting on my nerves lately. I would say Locke, he seems to be more in control and does things because he believes he knows the outcome will be good for his purpose.
Dude you are my hero!!! What is your email address??!
I'm really sorry Dark, I totally didn't realize that what I was posting would be considered a spoiler (which I try to avoid at all costs - other than reading the recaps on the site, the only other extracurricular Losting I do is listen to the official podcast).
So can I just try to clarify some questions that have been flying around on this board (from this week's podcast)? I guess I assumed that anything in the official podcast was fair game.
1) Jin was in the range of the island that is time skipping. He is experiencing exactly the same skips as Faraday, Sawyer and the gang (but he was unconscious until now).
2) Bernard and Rose were not killed in the flaming arrow attack.
3) Charlie Hume is named for Charlie Pace, not for Charles Widmore.
I don't think it has been mentioned here yet, but I believe the anagram of the name on the side of the carpet van is CANTON-RAINIER = REINCARNATION, thoughts?
Vozzek, what do you think is going to Lock when returned to the island?
Since the only other guy who came to the island in a coffin came back to life (or to some kind of symbiosis with the island), is that going to happen to him too?
You have been saying Ben is "telling the truth" ever since you started posting these things. Yet, when proved wrong again & again, you seem to start anew: NOW he's telling the truth! At what point, exactly, does Ben's love affair with the truth begin? You say it begins after the donkey wheel, but then say he's mostly lying anyway. Makes no sense. To me, it simply reflects his normal, manipulative M.O.: sprinkle the lies with truth and your opponent won't know what to believe. For the life of me, I don't know why you bend over backwards to defend the guy (and no, you're not simply giving him the "benefit of the doubt," or worse, being morally relative. You are actually siding with a character who's done nothing but evil things).
The writers of this show have consistently stated that Ben is a "bad guy." They've never written in a scintilla of compassion. In other words, he's not an equivilant to Sawyer or Charlie, characters who did much less worse than Ben, and were from the beginning - like all of the Losties - flawed, but loaded wtih humanity. Ben, on the other hand, has never been shown to act for anyone other than himself; murder, kidnapping, lies, threats, blackmail....he's never worked in any other medium. Funny, these things are always overlooked in your "analyes," which would only make sense if you disregard all these actions.
And as far as this time travel stuff, the writers have also time and time again said that there will NOT be multiple or parallel universes as a result (i.e., the castaways living in alternate realities).
Can't resist pointing out that Iraq did not lose Desert Storm. The "American invaders" were repelled and Saddam kept his job longer than Bush Sr. did. Just sayin'.
"Harper's skipping along just like our main island characters are right now"
Whoa! This is really making my head spin. Me no likey.
"Every week Sayid reaches new levels of complete badassedness."
Great word.
"There's an end event that's never happened before, one that Desmond's ability to change things will eventually bring"
That makes the most sense.
"when Ben told Michael that he was one of the 'good guys' I think he'll turn out to be just that."
Absolutely. Though his definition of good may be somewhat mutable.
"People helping each other for the sake of friendship is a difficult concept for him to grasp."
Excellent observation.
"I just hope the last scene of LOST doesn't end with a new set of characters getting on a new plane in India..."
UGH!
Sharon Rose (any relation to Tokyo Rose?), get your history straight. The stated objectives of Operation Desert Storm were the "immediate, complete, and unconditional withdrawal of all Iraqi forces from Kuwait," and the "restoration of Kuwait's legitimate government to replace the puppet regime installed by Iraq." The Republican Guard surrendered to US troops in droves. Not only did the Iraqis not "repel" the US, they were the "invaders" in this scenario. Bush Sr. chose not to invade Bagdad (maybe he should have, as many have argued). Further, our presidents are Constitutoinally bound by a wonderful thing called term limits, unlike the fascistic, dictatorial regime which operated in Iraq, where the people have no say in the matter. I'm just sayin'...
I must say I find your theory on the "first time" phenomenon to be spot on. It illustrates why Stephen King has had such an interest in the show, consulting with Lindelof and Cuse, and shows the two paying homage to their hero. Effectively they are using the time theory postulated in the Dark Tower - ka is a wheel, Roland repeating events over and over, until one time something changes, something that enables the loop to break, the recovery of the horn. Likewise that seems to be the path of Lost.
Okay, my thoughts in response to some of these cool replies:
I don't even remember what I had for breakfast a few days ago... you really think it's plausible that a one-time meeting that lasts at best a couple minutes (or a few hours at most until the next flash) would remember after going insane and SIXTEEN years pass by?
Point taken, although as others have pointed out the day you crashed onto LOST island would be a day that would sorta stick in your memory. And we haven't seen the extent of Danielle's interaction with Jin yet.
God, Vozzek, do you watch the same show?
Haha! I want you all to know this is always my favorite response. I get at least one or two of these each week. :)
I don't agree that O6 off-Island life will be canceled when they return to the Island. Whatever happened happened. That includes O6 3 years. Otherwise Ji Yeon wouldn't be born. Sayid wouldn't kill those guys. You can't take back what already happened. It's against the rules set by the writers.
Yah. The writers also decried time travel, if you remember. Are they now breaking their own 'rules'? Didn't Widmore break the rules? In my example, Ji Yeon would still be born, it would just happen differently - in fact, it would be more poignant this time because Jin would be there for it. Everyone (me included) needs to understand that there are no rules. Anything can happen. Everything can happen. Sit back and just enjoy it.
thats why they were working on a runway because ben knew they would need it...
Man, I've been hearing people talk about a runway since season 2! It should be LaGuardia airport by now!
But, more simply, maybe rain means time-skipping INTO the PAST and no rain means time-skipping INTO the FUTURE.
Cool theory Blindeye, I like it.
i posted a very similar theory yesterday about the people on boat being the 06. and that juliet shot one of them and were gonna sees he shot a lostie.
I hadn't thought of this, but many people seem to be buying into it. Still, do you forsee the O6 attacking an unknown canoe with rifles? Are they that aggressive? Dunno about that.
A time traveler can transmit information to the future (where things CAN change) by hiding something or telling someone who buries it in their memory (temporary forgetting)
Yup. I called Ben on this last season when he suddenly 'found' a box with some very convenient things in it for him and Locke, and even a candy bar for Hurley. Don't remember which episode it was, but my title for that paragraph was "Hey! I DID steal my dad's keys!"
"Ditto for Sawyer, awestruck at seeing his past friends, lovestruck at seeing Kate, and completely powerless to do anything 'BUT WATCH'."
When I read it I thought about words that Cindy (captured by the Others) said to Jack when he was in cage (Hydra station). She said: "We are here to watch".
Awesome observation... I agree. I always thought there was something about Cindy and the kids being there but not being there at the same time. They're in a 'better place'... I just don't think they're talking about the Temple.
Which means all this solution to the paradox does is add a weird extra compass that pops into existence just to be traded through time. It really makes no sense.
I'm not really sure why that doesn't make sense to you. Why can't there be two compasses? Can we agree there are most likely two of Locke and two of Sawyer (and Juliet while we're at it) on the island during the scene where Aaron is born? Unless the first Locke and Sawyer 'phase out' for those few minutes. And I STILL think there are two flight 815's, always did. One of them is at the bottom of an ocean.
No mention that Miles is obviously Pierre Chang (Dr. Marvin Candle, Dr. Mark Wickmund and Dr. Edgar Halliwax) son. It makes senses, explains the nose bleeds and why he has been to the island before. Obviously was sent off just before the purge.
People mentioned this last week and I wasn't sure I bought it, but it certainly makes a lot more sense now that Miles' nose is bleeding. I agree that this is probably the deal here.
Thanks Vozz. I really enjoy reading your theories even though some are a little far-fetched (your writing is excellent). I automatically assumed that Ajira Bottle Timeline was the thing that was going to happen, but not that it could be a possible future.
First, thanks for the compliments (that goes for everyone). Second, I have to admit that my first theory was even wackier: I thought maybe something happened to allow Flight 815 to land safely in LA, and instead we were watching a whole different plane crash (Ajira air) with all new characters - making it an alternate timeline. I thought they had even built the camp, too...until I saw an Oceanic logo next to one of the lean-to's.
Remember when Faraday went back and told Desmond to find his mother? "Future" Desmond didn't remember it until the moment Faraday did it in the past because it technically hadn't happened yet. So similarly, Jin hadn't washed up in the past yet, so future Danielle wouldn't have remembered him. If she was still alive in the present, with the time traveling group, she would suddenly remember meeting Jin in the past.
Spotted duck, this theory rocks. It's kinda like 'everything that happened, happened' and 'things can still be changed' all rolled into one.
No, Spotted Duck's explanation is incorrect. He assumes that changes in the timeline are possible, but the show has made it very clear that the timeline cannot be changed, that things have happened exactly as they have always happened. Thus, there was never a timeline in which Danielle and Jin didn't meet. If we see them meeting in 1988, it means that they ALWAYS met in 1988. (As Daniel explained, Desmond is an exception to this rule. Thus, you can't use Desmond's situation to explain everything else.)
Ah, but you CAN use Desmond's situation to explain everything else. Whatever Desmond changes can cause ripples that change all KINDS of other situations. Desmond is the pebble, LOST is the pond. The ripples caused by him keeping Charlie alive for so long cause waves that CAN change things this time around. You can't just say 'if it happened it always happened' - go back and watch Ben's face the moment that Alex was killed.
Dude you are my hero!!! What is your email address??!
vozzek69@hotmail.com
I don't think it has been mentioned here yet, but I believe the anagram of the name on the side of the carpet van is CANTON-RAINIER = REINCARNATION, thoughts?
No thoughts. It used to be fun to obsess over the whole anagram thing, but I gave that stuff up after S2. :)
Vozzek, what do you think is going to happen to Lock when returned to the island?
That's a GREAT question and I do have a few ideas... I'm still working on a theory though.
You have been saying Ben is "telling the truth" ever since you started posting these things. Yet, when proved wrong again & again, you seem to start anew: NOW he's telling the truth! At what point, exactly, does Ben's love affair with the truth begin? You say it begins after the donkey wheel, but then say he's mostly lying anyway. Makes no sense.
I understand your point, but hear me out. The definition of 'the truth', when it comes to Ben, is a little different than with everyone else. If you believe like I do, that LOST takes place in a repeating loop of time... and that Ben remembers these loops (which is why he's near all-knowing), I ask you to put yourself in his shoes for a minute. As Ben, you know who lives. You know who dies. You know what's *supposed* to happen, and if something gets changed you know that course correction will eventually take care of it.
So now let's say you've been through the loop a hundred times already. You KNOW that Ethan dies. Every time you see him watering his lawn, he's already DEAD to you. You could send him to his death by Charlie or you could shoot him in the back - it's all the same to you because there's really no saving him. This is why Ben never really considers himself (or his actions) to be evil... he's simply playing out the scenes as he knows them to be written. Do I think he's got a plan to re-write some things? Yes, especially now that Desmond's changed the loop. But overall, Ben lied his ass off on the island because he was still trying to guide people along the path/loop that keeps the island hidden.
Once the island was no longer hidden, he STILL lied his ass off trying to keep Widmore's people off it. But once it was inevitable that his cause was lost, Ben moved the island knowing it would be his ticket to the mainland... where he could try to repair the damage by bringing the O6 back to a time BEFORE THEY LEFT so he could prevent them from leaving. Ben is looking to call a 'do over'.
So let's get back to the lying. On the mainland, in this NEW stretch of time that Ben has never seen before... he's trying new things. Does he still lie and manipulate the O6 to get them where he wants to? Yes. But he's also giving the truth a try. Coming clean with Kate was unnecessary and even counter-productive to getting her back to the island. Yet he told her the truth. His character is evolving, and he's looking for change - just as he was looking for change by stealing Alex and raising her as his own, as well as recruiting Juliet to cure the 'fertility problem'. These things were completely outside of the island/Jacob's agenda, which is why Richard was pissed at him for it. Ben is among friends right now, friends who are trying to help each other and make sacrifices for each other, and these things are rubbing off on him. THAT's why he's telling the truth.
Alright, I think I'm done for now!
I think Sun is really hunting Jack and we're just made to think it's Ben.
That's why she's so interested in Kate - to get to Jack.
I was thinking its kinda weird at the begining of the little prince when jack is talking with kate who is holding aaron, on the searcher, penny's boat. Well kate says she wants to lie and say Aaron is hers and Jack says "you dont have to do this.." then kate says that she cant after they've lost so many people and she says "michael, jin, sawyer" then stops and jack says "sawyers not dead..blah blah"
I just thought it was weird that she didnt mention Boone's death or Shannon. It feels like the writers are focusing on the here and now a lot more than looking at the show in its entirety. it's kinda ironic that Kate's character would not include everyone who died and then later in the same episode they actually flash back to "do not harm: season 1" and talk about Boone.
Also i thought it seemed weird that he tells kate that they will have to lie and stuff when they are on the searcher. DIdn't he just tell them all that on the life-raft? is this a continuity error or am i lost?
Anyway, i hope to god that lost comes together and has some more moments like it did earlier in the series.
To I have a life hangover -
Thanks so much for clearing me up. It makes sense that Miles was the Candles' baby and make for a more interesting story. I will re- rewatch the episode, though, cause I'm not 100% convinced (plus I usually watch three times!).
Thank-you.
Everything's starting to make sense now. Good article.
Smoke Monster is the Dahaka from Prince of Persia: Warrior Within! [/claim] ;p
Maria - I know what you mean by watching those episodes over and over! Thank God for DVR!! I do kinda hope that he is Chang's baby...it would be pretty neat!
Yeah - the blood happens a bit before he mentions it to Daniel though (if I remember correct). My roommate accidentally deleted that episode from the DVR (totally sucks!) and I'm too impatient to watch it online - so I'll have to wait till Wednesday to check again! If you watch - let me know :) Happy searching and enjoy!!
@ Blindeyesnowsee
"2.I'm beginning to think that baby Charles from Des and Penny is actually Charles Widmore who knows his daughter is his mom. That would be wierd but would account for his refusal to interfere with them"
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This is awesome, I'm going to start chewing on this one.
Voz,
Thanks for your response. Kudos to you for being a good sport. That said....
I still don't get it. Wow....Ben's "ready for a change?" Will he be voting Obama in '08? I'm sorry, but I kid. I think you did your best to explain it to me and I appreciate that.
For starters, I don't buy into the "repeating loop" theory premise. It seems to go against the grain of what the writers have said about time travel and their avoidance of paradox (i.e., parallel or multiple timelines, non-linear time, etc.). And I'm even less believing that the existence a repeating loop would prove what you're saying about Ben being reformed into a good guy. I just don't see how that's supported by the content of the show. I'm not saying that nothing in your speculations will come to be, but I feel that based on what we know, it's not supported yet. I also think more distinction should be made between total speculation, and guesswork with support. You also seem to skip past the terrible things Ben has done, as if they've been justified within the framework of the show. For instance, you say Ben "recruited" Juliet when, in fact, he kidnapped and threatened her and her loved ones...he even claimed direct ownership over her! You keep going back to, "to him, he's doing what he feels is right." That could be, but it doesn't make Ben good by any stretch; his means would not justify his ends. I highly doubt the writers would be trying to tell us that the opposite is true, or that it "depends on which side one is on." This show, to me, has never been about moral equivalence/relativism.
I also trust what Carlton/Cuse have told us about time travel. Contrary to what was said above, I don't ever recall them "ruling out" its use on the show. If they have, I never came across it. If I'm wrong, someone please provide the info.
Vozz-Thank you for the in depth and insightful recapitulation. Jennifer I agree there are some rude responses on here. Aaron, I agree with your theory, being there is only 1 compass, otherewise, Richard has to carry 2 compasses with him and figure out if he needs to give Locke the old one or the new one depending on what year it is? Is that what the prevailing theory is for having two? My question is this - if you believe there are two Sawyers, Lockes, etc. on the Island at the same time place, one experiencing, one watching, couldn't it be true that if there are two, there are an infinite amount? My brain hurts just thinking about all of this. I don't know why there are people out there who say Danielle is crazy though. Wasn't that initially a myth perpertuated because she heard the whispers and kidnapped Aaron based on the whispers she heard? All which we've known from Season 1, have been experienced by the Losties also. I don't think she was ever crazy, except just maybe very lonely and sad from having her baby kidnapped from her.