Last year's pre-finale episode of LOST, Hiking Across Hawaii, produced some pretty lackluster reviews. This year however, they remembered to fill the episode with some pretty kickass stuff. We got the trifecta this week: plot advancement, humor, and a dream-team which reunited Richard, Ben, AND Locke. In setting up the board for next week's big game, both the 77' and 07' storylines contained epic new material. And as they flashed between those storylines, I was happy no matter which one landed on my screen. When it comes to LOST, that's always a good sign. Things I Noticed:
When Someone Charges You on Horseback, You Might Wanna Duck
As we see Faraday shot again, Jack's urgent need to fix things is about to go head-to-head with Kate's infamous flight instinct. But before we can see which one wins, Widmore performs rhinoplasty on Jack with the butt of his rifle. This makes the 3,451st time the 815'ers are captured by the Others. But hey, who's counting?
Boar. It's What's For Dinner.
John Locke v.2.0 knows how to make a great entrance. As he assumes the leadership mantle of his new tribe, he also provides them with something a lot more appetizing than the hideous squid and fish they're drying. Locke continues his fresh new matter-of-fact approach to all situations, which is just fine by me. Being direct is not a skill the Others ever managed to acquire, but with John around it looks like that's going to change.
Richard's building of what could be the Black Rock might be a clue that he was once tied to the slave ship... but I don't think so. I'm pretty sure he'll turn out to be way older than that. This episode, we finally learn more about Richard's role in the story: he's an ancient advisor. So we've got deputies of fate like Abaddon and Hawking, and we've got Richard in the role of camp counselor. With his book of laws and a rusty old compass, he gets to sit around building model ships until it's time to help identify the next leader of the Others eternal campout. Oh yeah, and he gets to stay young forever too. Not that bad a gig, really.
There are a few important elements to this scene. The first are Richard's words to Sun, after she shows him the recruitment photo. The fact that he "saw them all die" doesn't mean much here, because he could easily be talking about the Dharma initiative in general and referring to the purge. But if he's not, it's gonna make the finale a hell of a lot more interesting.
I thought it was also important to note how compassionate Locke is still treating Sun. His agenda doesn't include Jin directly, but Locke is still stringing her along with kind words, offering her water, and patting her hand with reassurance. He even gives her his word, which may or may not be good at this point. But with Locke 2.0 being all about business, why would he take the time to show Sun kindness and emotion? I think the answer to that lies in the fact that although the new Locke is undoubtedly island-influenced, there's still a measure of the old John Locke lying somewhere beneath the surface. And I'll bet that when the show ends, that Locke is going to become very important.
Locke's words to Sun were also interesting: "I don't think we went through all this for nothing, Sun." This seems to indicate a definite sense of purpose; not just for him but for all of our main characters. Where old Locke was a follower, flowing along with the island's stream of never-ending (and repeating) events, new John Locke is suddenly anti-destiny, striding purposefully through the island's jungles and across its beaches in an attempt to make a difference. He's instilled with both knowledge AND an objective. And his objective is the exact opposite of Ben and Richard's, which I think I've finally figured out:
The Others: Extreme Campers? Or Something More?
Since last week, I've had the impression that the Others have all been guardians of LOST's time loop, living only to keep it alive. Somewhere down the line, a horrific event takes place that needs to be avoided. I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again. This loop of time must begin somewhere and end somewhere (the incident? the 815 crash?), but everything in between is the only thing that matters to the Others. This is where they reside, and this is what they protect.
So these people survive on and on, living from generation to generation, making sure that everything happens up to and including the important point where time folds back upon itself. They have knowledge passed on from forever ago, and their agents (Hawking, Abaddon, etc...) use this knowledge to ensure that the everything happens in proper order. Richard is the Other's constant. Since he never dies, he's the keeper of all the advanced knowledge - he passes this on to each successive chosen leader. He knows what must be done and guides everyone accordingly. And if I were him, I'd probably be bored out of my skull right about now, too.
I'm thinking the Swan hatch MUST get built in order to allow the time loop to occur. Everyone knows this. This is why the Others are allowing a full-blown construction team to dig in their territory. This also explains why they'd leave Desmond alone for all those years, so he could keep on pushing the button.
When you consider that only the leaders really know what's going on, the rest of the Others' tribe members are resigned to lame tasks like fishing, hunting, sewing up those cool cloth tents, and getting shot every couple of episodes. They're generations removed from knowing anything about what's going on. Every once in a while a leader gives them an important task that will shape the future, such as clearing off the runway on the Hydra island, but they're too much in the dark to even know why they're doing such things. They've been followers for so long, they no longer even know who or what they're following. Just look at how they all stumbled, zombie-like, into a line of well-behaved sheep when Locke announced he was taking everyone to the movies.
So now, where does Jacob fit into all this? And why are they following him? The answer is that they're not. Even worse, they never really were. More on that at the end.
Caged Heat (1977)
At long last, we finally get to see Jack dish out some crying. For five seasons now, he's always been at the receiving end of the waterworks. As Jack explains his plan to wipe the slate clean by changing history, Kate picks this exact moment to suddenly open up and express her true feelings to him. Awesome. This was information Jack could've used, oh I don't know, maybe 12,000 vicidins ago.
Kate looks horrified at Jack's suggestion that he erase their future past. From the face she makes when Jack mentions flight 815 landing in Los Angeles, some of it has to stem from Kate knowing she'll be back in handcuffs. But from the rest of it, I guess we're supposed to gather that Kate truly does love Jack. I never really doubted this, but I think she somehow loved Sawyer more. Can she love both? Not sure. But Kate seems to do the most soul-searching when she's in captivity, and her love always seems conditional on her current situation. This is exactly the type of flip-flopping that dooms her character to ridicule.
But let's not ignore the Aaron factor. Kate's tears are also for him. Reversing the past and not ever knowing the love a mother can have for her son would be absolutely devastating to Kate. Even though she'd be indirectly keeping her promise to bring Claire back, Kate can't stand the thought of destroying her entire past history as Aaron's mother. This is kind of touching, and it also makes her character more appealing to me.
Believability Sure Goes a Long Way Toward Advancing The Plot
It's pretty cool to see how a slow, rational explanation can finally go a long way toward influencing someone on LOST. Dan's gun-toting approach to diplomacy falls miserably short when compared to Jack's open, honest conversation with Eloise. And once again we're suddenly feeling a little sorry for someone who, only last week, was labeled a cold-hearted murder. The younger version of Ellie not only believes Jack, she also wants to help reverse her actions by agreeing to his pretty wild plan.
We also learn a little more here about Widmore and Hawking: both of them seem to be on equal footing when it comes to ruling the Others. I was surprised at how little resistance he gave her after she explained what she planned to to. Watching him place his hand on her stomach, we can also assume she's already pregnant with Daniel.
Are you SURE Radzinsky is Really Dharma Material?
Somebody needs to take a second look at his application. For someone hanging out in the 70's, Radzinsky's not very full of peace or love. His vehement assertion that the Swan station needs to stay on schedule seemed to indicate he's operating under a different set of orders. This was made even more clear by how easily he seized control away from Horace.
So why are the big bosses at Ann Arbor so obsessed with getting the Swan done? From what we know so far, its only purpose is to study a magnetic anomaly. This can't be the case anymore - someone definitely knows something (or maybe even has advanced knowledge of that something). Hopefully Radzinsky will reveal this later on. For now though, we get to watch him beat up Sawyer - and see Phil slap girls. Not cool Phil. If I were him, I wouldn't be doing that with the finale coming up and all.
And don't reduce Sawyer's loyalty solely to Kate. Just because they did a freeze-frame on her tiny little ass doesn't mean Sawyer wasn't trying to protect all his other friends too. This was apparent when Juliet was about to say something and he told her not to get anyone else hurt. Sawyer won't betray any of his friends. So when Radzinsky gives Sawyer pencil and paper, I'm pretty sure he's going to get a diagram of Disneyland. This should lead Radzinsky's team into a shitstorm of trouble during the finale... and it might put the blast door map a little off, too.
Alright Dude, We're From the Future...
Incredibly awesome scene. From the last minute grab of the vanilla cookies to the look Jin gives Hurley when he doesn't know the president, this is one of my favorite moments of the season. Chang continues to be amazingly cool. I loved the interaction between him and Miles when it was finally revealed that he was his son. By believing Daniel's prophecy and buying into their story, we're set up later in the episode for the inevitable send-off between Chang and his wife/son. Although we knew this would happen anyway, it was pretty touching to see. Miles' mom resented her husband not for doing anything wrong, but for not explaining why she had to be shipped off the island, never to see her husband again.
Desmond May be the Constant, But...
Gonna put a new spin on one of my old theories here, going back to S3 when I called him the 'indestructible epicenter of all things'. I talked about this a little on the ODI podcast last week, but I wanted to put it here for everyone who didn't hear it. Here goes:
The Variable is Hurley.
Since the very beginning of LOST, this has been true. We've never seen it so clearly until now, because we've never really had reason to scrutinize it. But let's examine the evidence for a minute, and then you guys can make your own assumptions. Here's what I'm saying:
* Hurley almost didn't make Flight 815. In fact, the woman at the counter tells him: "I don't think you're supposed to be on this flight, dear".
* When Ben sees Hurley on Ajira 316, he looks him in the eye and tells him: "Hugo, who told you to come?"
* In Left Behind, episode S3.15, Hurley stands on the beach with Sawyer sitting behind him. He then looks out into the ocean, and says "I'm not supposed to be here".
* In Locke's vision where Boone's wheeling him through the airport, Hurley's the only person not getting on the plane. Everyone else is boarding the flight, but Hurley is not a passenger: instead he's stamping tickets at the gate.
* In S1, Hurley knew he wouldn't die on the bridge. He just had a 'feeling' he'd be alright - and he was. At the end of S3 Hurley knew he could get that 30+ year old van to start... and he got it started. He drives the van into Pryce through a hail of gunfire, without ever taking a single bullet.
* Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley all get captured by the Others. But Hurley was the one person they let go.
Hugo has always been lucky: rolling the dice, winning at horseshoes, never missing at basketball, winning the lottery. He eternally makes his own luck... and if this is the case, it stands to reason that he can make his own future. Hugo makes his own kind of music - he's been doing this both on and off the island. He's untouchable, unreachable, and the island can't affect him for a very simple reason: he's not supposed to be here.
Think about Hurley's distractions, too. The island tried to bribe him with a storeroom of food, but Hugo blew it up. It tried to offer him romance, but then his potential girlfriend gets shot. It even tries to get him to kill himself... by using Dave to almost convince Hurley to jump off a cliff. Didn't work.
Outside of the island? Hurley's in a mental institution, where someone is watching over him (because they can't touch him) to make sure he stays put. He gets out anyway. Then he's captured and imprisoned by the police. Somehow he gets out of that, too. No matter what happens, Hurley can't be contained. Hurley can somehow even see Jacob's cabin, because he's not affected by whatever illusions or smokescreens the island puts up.
Even now, it's no coincidence that Hurley's the one voice arguing in favor that things can be changed. He argues with Miles in Whatever Happened Happened, and he's trying to rewrite history with his Empire Strikes Back script. Hurley's seen more ghosts than anyone else. Charlie comes to Hurley as a ghost, telling him "They need you". Who needs him? Everyone else in the story. The Hurley bird is even shrieking his name over and over in the finale. The answer is obvious to me: Hurley's the one person who'll end up changing things.
What's funny is that we've always thought the game changer would come from one of the bigger players: Desmond, Ben, Jack, Locke - but if you think about LOST in general, it makes sense that such changes would come from someone you'd least expect. Hurley is perfect because no one's expecting him to matter. He's done nothing but cook, divide up food, play ping pong, and make everyone else laugh - including us.
Hurley is the island's very big problem because he's the one person who's "not here for a reason". And that's the very reason why he'll end up being so important: WHH can't apply to Hurley, because he was never a part of the plan (timeline?) in the first place. In short, I'm saying Hurley is the variable. Just tossing that out there, so let's hear everyone's thoughts on it!
Benjamin Linus... Bitter Betty? Or Slow-Playing The Island?
Here's one to hate on: I think Ben's not half as stupid as he acts this episode. Michael Emerson is an amazing actor, which is why you can tell when he's intentionally over-acting. Ben's comments throughout this episode ranged from false bitterness ("Why John, afraid I'll stage a coup?") to artificial astonishment ("What just happened? Where did you go?") to over-the-top sarcasm ("Your timing was impeccable, John!"). If you doubt it, just listen to him when Locke mentions the Beechcraft: "What plane?!?!?!". Yeah, right. Clearly he's acting here, and not doing a very good job of it (Linus, not Emerson).
The reason for this is pretty simple: Ben's slow-playing the island. He intentionally wants the island (acting through Locke) to think he's stupid, that way it doesn't perceive him as a threat. Thinking pointedly back to Alex tossing him around that Egyptian chamber and calling him out on his murderous thoughts, Ben is attempting to keep the island out of his head. Acting dumb is the best way he can think of to accomplish this right now.
But one thing I don't think Ben's lying on... when Locke calls him on never having seen Jacob? That's the truth. I don't think Ben ever has seen Jacob. Ben was never meant to be a chosen leader of the island anyway.
Can Sayid Go Three Episodes Without Shooting Someone? All Signs Point to No
Just when it seems the 815ers and the Others finally have a common goal, Kate's flight instinct once again gets someone killed. Sayid interrupts the can't-we-all-just-get-along moment by shooting another one of the Others. And as he moves forward while keeping everyone at gunpoint, I thought it interesting how quickly Richard stepped in front of Eloise to protect her from getting shot next.
So many times throughout the show we've seen diverging agendas; groups splitting up because each disagreed with the other's end goal. Here we've got Jack and then Sayid arguing on the side of bringing everything to a bombtacular end, which as Sayid succinctly points out would finish the story one way or another. Kate somehow expects to "get everyone else" to convince Jack he's wrong, which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time.
In any case, the Egyptians built one hell of an underground tunnel system. I'm not sure how or why the bomb got down there, but if it's directly beneath Dharmaville this whole time maybe it explains why Miles' mother seemed to be suffering from some sort of radiation sickness in her later years. She's one of the only Dharma residents who reaches old age anyway, so it's kind of hard to make a comparison.
Good Riddance. Again. And This Time I Mean It!
Sawyer's idea to buy Microsoft and bet on the Dallas Cowboys is probably one of the soundest plans on the whole show. With Radzinsky being led safely away to wherever Sawyer's map sent him, everything's looking good from all angles. He and Juliet get to leave the island for a sweet bell-bottomed lifestyle, and his friends can do whatever the hell they want... being in shackles absolves Sawyer of any responsibility toward them at this point. It's totally win-win for him.
But then, just like before, Kate arrives to screw everything up. Suddenly Sawyer is now one crazy landlord and a pair of short shorts away from starring in his own twisted version of Three's Company. So much for his plans of eating popcorn and watching the 78' Superbowl.
With the finale only a week away, it's obvious that the sub never gets to leave the island. I'm not sure how it happens, but if I had to guess? Kate convinces them to go back - which is a nice twist on Jack trying to convince her to go back two seasons ago. If Jack were to succeed in what he's trying to do, Juliet and Sawyer would never get to have their off-island life anyway. I'm thinking maybe Horace is also on the sub. He seems to owe allegiance to Jim Lafleur, and is probably pissed at being upstaged by Radzinsky. If I had to guess, he'd be the one to free them from the cuffs. Can't wait to see what happens to Phil.
There is No Spoon
As the episode progresses, Richard begins to understand Ben's point about Locke potentially "becoming a problem". It looks as if this new version of John Locke is going to pull back their curtain and expose the pile of bullshit that is Jacob. Or at least, maybe this is what Locke thinks. To Ben and Richard however, the story's probably a lot different.
There definitely has to be a Jacob. Not only have we seen his cabin, but we've heard him speak. We've also seen him actually re-wind time: at the end of Locke's first encounter with him, we saw that broken lantern (and the fire it started) instantly fix itself. We saw a ring of ash around Jacob's cabin, which originally seemed like it might've been there to protect it from being discovered or seen. Later on though, it became more and more obvious that the ring of ash was probably there for the opposite reason: to keep Jacob IN. We also saw a very worried look on Ben's face when he saw that the circle had been broken, almost as if he were worried that something had escaped. Incidentally, this is also when we started seeing quasi-evil Christian and Claire.
So Ben and Richard both know of Jacob, but instead of following his orders maybe they've just kept him imprisoned all this time. They do whatever's needed to keep the time loop on track, in order to keep whatever happened still happening correctly. "Jacob" is how they keep their followers in line. The refer to his "orders" whenever necessary, making sure everyone does what they're supposed to. No one can question Jacob, because no one has ever seen him. The very act of questioning him incurs everyone else's wrath. He becomes, in effect, the island's version of God.
On a side note, this also explains Widmore's wry reaction to Richard just after he'd brought young Ben to the temple: "Jacob wanted it done". As leader, Widmore knows Jacob said no such thing, but he also knows that's what Richard has already told his people. To keep up the illusion of this supreme being, he has to accept and acknowledge it in front of everyone else.
Now we find out Locke wants to kill Jacob. Perhaps he only wants to kill the illusion of Jacob - once he does that, he puts himself firmly in command. Or maybe he wants to free Jacob from whatever temporal prison he seems stuck in, and the only way to do that is through the same method he himself was resurrected: death. The only thing we can be sure of is that whatever spirit wants this done (the island? the smoke monster?) is now acting through Locke, and is probably trying to get rid of a long-standing island problem that both Richard and Ben were trying to hide or keep from it.
To sum it up, maybe Jacob did exist at one point. If so, I'm guessing he was a realllllllly bad dude. Maybe he caused assloads of problems and was finally contained, similar to a demon or something along those lines. It probably took a lot of time and a lot of effort to finally put Jacob down, and now Locke's talking about revisiting a very bad scenario. I think both Ben and Richard are genuinely afraid of Jacob - they don't seem to be pretending when it comes to that.
But what happens when Locke gets there? Can't wait to see it.
As we see Faraday shot again, Jack's urgent need to fix things is about to go head-to-head with Kate's infamous flight instinct. But before we can see which one wins, Widmore performs rhinoplasty on Jack with the butt of his rifle. This makes the 3,451st time the 815'ers are captured by the Others. But hey, who's counting?
Boar. It's What's For Dinner.
John Locke v.2.0 knows how to make a great entrance. As he assumes the leadership mantle of his new tribe, he also provides them with something a lot more appetizing than the hideous squid and fish they're drying. Locke continues his fresh new matter-of-fact approach to all situations, which is just fine by me. Being direct is not a skill the Others ever managed to acquire, but with John around it looks like that's going to change.
Richard's building of what could be the Black Rock might be a clue that he was once tied to the slave ship... but I don't think so. I'm pretty sure he'll turn out to be way older than that. This episode, we finally learn more about Richard's role in the story: he's an ancient advisor. So we've got deputies of fate like Abaddon and Hawking, and we've got Richard in the role of camp counselor. With his book of laws and a rusty old compass, he gets to sit around building model ships until it's time to help identify the next leader of the Others eternal campout. Oh yeah, and he gets to stay young forever too. Not that bad a gig, really.
There are a few important elements to this scene. The first are Richard's words to Sun, after she shows him the recruitment photo. The fact that he "saw them all die" doesn't mean much here, because he could easily be talking about the Dharma initiative in general and referring to the purge. But if he's not, it's gonna make the finale a hell of a lot more interesting.
I thought it was also important to note how compassionate Locke is still treating Sun. His agenda doesn't include Jin directly, but Locke is still stringing her along with kind words, offering her water, and patting her hand with reassurance. He even gives her his word, which may or may not be good at this point. But with Locke 2.0 being all about business, why would he take the time to show Sun kindness and emotion? I think the answer to that lies in the fact that although the new Locke is undoubtedly island-influenced, there's still a measure of the old John Locke lying somewhere beneath the surface. And I'll bet that when the show ends, that Locke is going to become very important.
Locke's words to Sun were also interesting: "I don't think we went through all this for nothing, Sun." This seems to indicate a definite sense of purpose; not just for him but for all of our main characters. Where old Locke was a follower, flowing along with the island's stream of never-ending (and repeating) events, new John Locke is suddenly anti-destiny, striding purposefully through the island's jungles and across its beaches in an attempt to make a difference. He's instilled with both knowledge AND an objective. And his objective is the exact opposite of Ben and Richard's, which I think I've finally figured out:
The Others: Extreme Campers? Or Something More?
Since last week, I've had the impression that the Others have all been guardians of LOST's time loop, living only to keep it alive. Somewhere down the line, a horrific event takes place that needs to be avoided. I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again. This loop of time must begin somewhere and end somewhere (the incident? the 815 crash?), but everything in between is the only thing that matters to the Others. This is where they reside, and this is what they protect.
So these people survive on and on, living from generation to generation, making sure that everything happens up to and including the important point where time folds back upon itself. They have knowledge passed on from forever ago, and their agents (Hawking, Abaddon, etc...) use this knowledge to ensure that the everything happens in proper order. Richard is the Other's constant. Since he never dies, he's the keeper of all the advanced knowledge - he passes this on to each successive chosen leader. He knows what must be done and guides everyone accordingly. And if I were him, I'd probably be bored out of my skull right about now, too.
I'm thinking the Swan hatch MUST get built in order to allow the time loop to occur. Everyone knows this. This is why the Others are allowing a full-blown construction team to dig in their territory. This also explains why they'd leave Desmond alone for all those years, so he could keep on pushing the button.
When you consider that only the leaders really know what's going on, the rest of the Others' tribe members are resigned to lame tasks like fishing, hunting, sewing up those cool cloth tents, and getting shot every couple of episodes. They're generations removed from knowing anything about what's going on. Every once in a while a leader gives them an important task that will shape the future, such as clearing off the runway on the Hydra island, but they're too much in the dark to even know why they're doing such things. They've been followers for so long, they no longer even know who or what they're following. Just look at how they all stumbled, zombie-like, into a line of well-behaved sheep when Locke announced he was taking everyone to the movies.
So now, where does Jacob fit into all this? And why are they following him? The answer is that they're not. Even worse, they never really were. More on that at the end.
Caged Heat (1977)
At long last, we finally get to see Jack dish out some crying. For five seasons now, he's always been at the receiving end of the waterworks. As Jack explains his plan to wipe the slate clean by changing history, Kate picks this exact moment to suddenly open up and express her true feelings to him. Awesome. This was information Jack could've used, oh I don't know, maybe 12,000 vicidins ago.
Kate looks horrified at Jack's suggestion that he erase their future past. From the face she makes when Jack mentions flight 815 landing in Los Angeles, some of it has to stem from Kate knowing she'll be back in handcuffs. But from the rest of it, I guess we're supposed to gather that Kate truly does love Jack. I never really doubted this, but I think she somehow loved Sawyer more. Can she love both? Not sure. But Kate seems to do the most soul-searching when she's in captivity, and her love always seems conditional on her current situation. This is exactly the type of flip-flopping that dooms her character to ridicule.
But let's not ignore the Aaron factor. Kate's tears are also for him. Reversing the past and not ever knowing the love a mother can have for her son would be absolutely devastating to Kate. Even though she'd be indirectly keeping her promise to bring Claire back, Kate can't stand the thought of destroying her entire past history as Aaron's mother. This is kind of touching, and it also makes her character more appealing to me.
Believability Sure Goes a Long Way Toward Advancing The Plot
It's pretty cool to see how a slow, rational explanation can finally go a long way toward influencing someone on LOST. Dan's gun-toting approach to diplomacy falls miserably short when compared to Jack's open, honest conversation with Eloise. And once again we're suddenly feeling a little sorry for someone who, only last week, was labeled a cold-hearted murder. The younger version of Ellie not only believes Jack, she also wants to help reverse her actions by agreeing to his pretty wild plan.
We also learn a little more here about Widmore and Hawking: both of them seem to be on equal footing when it comes to ruling the Others. I was surprised at how little resistance he gave her after she explained what she planned to to. Watching him place his hand on her stomach, we can also assume she's already pregnant with Daniel.
Are you SURE Radzinsky is Really Dharma Material?
Somebody needs to take a second look at his application. For someone hanging out in the 70's, Radzinsky's not very full of peace or love. His vehement assertion that the Swan station needs to stay on schedule seemed to indicate he's operating under a different set of orders. This was made even more clear by how easily he seized control away from Horace.
So why are the big bosses at Ann Arbor so obsessed with getting the Swan done? From what we know so far, its only purpose is to study a magnetic anomaly. This can't be the case anymore - someone definitely knows something (or maybe even has advanced knowledge of that something). Hopefully Radzinsky will reveal this later on. For now though, we get to watch him beat up Sawyer - and see Phil slap girls. Not cool Phil. If I were him, I wouldn't be doing that with the finale coming up and all.
And don't reduce Sawyer's loyalty solely to Kate. Just because they did a freeze-frame on her tiny little ass doesn't mean Sawyer wasn't trying to protect all his other friends too. This was apparent when Juliet was about to say something and he told her not to get anyone else hurt. Sawyer won't betray any of his friends. So when Radzinsky gives Sawyer pencil and paper, I'm pretty sure he's going to get a diagram of Disneyland. This should lead Radzinsky's team into a shitstorm of trouble during the finale... and it might put the blast door map a little off, too.
Alright Dude, We're From the Future...
Incredibly awesome scene. From the last minute grab of the vanilla cookies to the look Jin gives Hurley when he doesn't know the president, this is one of my favorite moments of the season. Chang continues to be amazingly cool. I loved the interaction between him and Miles when it was finally revealed that he was his son. By believing Daniel's prophecy and buying into their story, we're set up later in the episode for the inevitable send-off between Chang and his wife/son. Although we knew this would happen anyway, it was pretty touching to see. Miles' mom resented her husband not for doing anything wrong, but for not explaining why she had to be shipped off the island, never to see her husband again.
Desmond May be the Constant, But...
Gonna put a new spin on one of my old theories here, going back to S3 when I called him the 'indestructible epicenter of all things'. I talked about this a little on the ODI podcast last week, but I wanted to put it here for everyone who didn't hear it. Here goes:
The Variable is Hurley.
Since the very beginning of LOST, this has been true. We've never seen it so clearly until now, because we've never really had reason to scrutinize it. But let's examine the evidence for a minute, and then you guys can make your own assumptions. Here's what I'm saying:
* Hurley almost didn't make Flight 815. In fact, the woman at the counter tells him: "I don't think you're supposed to be on this flight, dear".
* When Ben sees Hurley on Ajira 316, he looks him in the eye and tells him: "Hugo, who told you to come?"
* In Left Behind, episode S3.15, Hurley stands on the beach with Sawyer sitting behind him. He then looks out into the ocean, and says "I'm not supposed to be here".
* In Locke's vision where Boone's wheeling him through the airport, Hurley's the only person not getting on the plane. Everyone else is boarding the flight, but Hurley is not a passenger: instead he's stamping tickets at the gate.
* In S1, Hurley knew he wouldn't die on the bridge. He just had a 'feeling' he'd be alright - and he was. At the end of S3 Hurley knew he could get that 30+ year old van to start... and he got it started. He drives the van into Pryce through a hail of gunfire, without ever taking a single bullet.
* Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley all get captured by the Others. But Hurley was the one person they let go.
Hugo has always been lucky: rolling the dice, winning at horseshoes, never missing at basketball, winning the lottery. He eternally makes his own luck... and if this is the case, it stands to reason that he can make his own future. Hugo makes his own kind of music - he's been doing this both on and off the island. He's untouchable, unreachable, and the island can't affect him for a very simple reason: he's not supposed to be here.
Think about Hurley's distractions, too. The island tried to bribe him with a storeroom of food, but Hugo blew it up. It tried to offer him romance, but then his potential girlfriend gets shot. It even tries to get him to kill himself... by using Dave to almost convince Hurley to jump off a cliff. Didn't work.
Outside of the island? Hurley's in a mental institution, where someone is watching over him (because they can't touch him) to make sure he stays put. He gets out anyway. Then he's captured and imprisoned by the police. Somehow he gets out of that, too. No matter what happens, Hurley can't be contained. Hurley can somehow even see Jacob's cabin, because he's not affected by whatever illusions or smokescreens the island puts up.
Even now, it's no coincidence that Hurley's the one voice arguing in favor that things can be changed. He argues with Miles in Whatever Happened Happened, and he's trying to rewrite history with his Empire Strikes Back script. Hurley's seen more ghosts than anyone else. Charlie comes to Hurley as a ghost, telling him "They need you". Who needs him? Everyone else in the story. The Hurley bird is even shrieking his name over and over in the finale. The answer is obvious to me: Hurley's the one person who'll end up changing things.
What's funny is that we've always thought the game changer would come from one of the bigger players: Desmond, Ben, Jack, Locke - but if you think about LOST in general, it makes sense that such changes would come from someone you'd least expect. Hurley is perfect because no one's expecting him to matter. He's done nothing but cook, divide up food, play ping pong, and make everyone else laugh - including us.
Hurley is the island's very big problem because he's the one person who's "not here for a reason". And that's the very reason why he'll end up being so important: WHH can't apply to Hurley, because he was never a part of the plan (timeline?) in the first place. In short, I'm saying Hurley is the variable. Just tossing that out there, so let's hear everyone's thoughts on it!
Benjamin Linus... Bitter Betty? Or Slow-Playing The Island?
Here's one to hate on: I think Ben's not half as stupid as he acts this episode. Michael Emerson is an amazing actor, which is why you can tell when he's intentionally over-acting. Ben's comments throughout this episode ranged from false bitterness ("Why John, afraid I'll stage a coup?") to artificial astonishment ("What just happened? Where did you go?") to over-the-top sarcasm ("Your timing was impeccable, John!"). If you doubt it, just listen to him when Locke mentions the Beechcraft: "What plane?!?!?!". Yeah, right. Clearly he's acting here, and not doing a very good job of it (Linus, not Emerson).
The reason for this is pretty simple: Ben's slow-playing the island. He intentionally wants the island (acting through Locke) to think he's stupid, that way it doesn't perceive him as a threat. Thinking pointedly back to Alex tossing him around that Egyptian chamber and calling him out on his murderous thoughts, Ben is attempting to keep the island out of his head. Acting dumb is the best way he can think of to accomplish this right now.
But one thing I don't think Ben's lying on... when Locke calls him on never having seen Jacob? That's the truth. I don't think Ben ever has seen Jacob. Ben was never meant to be a chosen leader of the island anyway.
Can Sayid Go Three Episodes Without Shooting Someone? All Signs Point to No
Just when it seems the 815ers and the Others finally have a common goal, Kate's flight instinct once again gets someone killed. Sayid interrupts the can't-we-all-just-get-along moment by shooting another one of the Others. And as he moves forward while keeping everyone at gunpoint, I thought it interesting how quickly Richard stepped in front of Eloise to protect her from getting shot next.
So many times throughout the show we've seen diverging agendas; groups splitting up because each disagreed with the other's end goal. Here we've got Jack and then Sayid arguing on the side of bringing everything to a bombtacular end, which as Sayid succinctly points out would finish the story one way or another. Kate somehow expects to "get everyone else" to convince Jack he's wrong, which didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time.
In any case, the Egyptians built one hell of an underground tunnel system. I'm not sure how or why the bomb got down there, but if it's directly beneath Dharmaville this whole time maybe it explains why Miles' mother seemed to be suffering from some sort of radiation sickness in her later years. She's one of the only Dharma residents who reaches old age anyway, so it's kind of hard to make a comparison.
Good Riddance. Again. And This Time I Mean It!
Sawyer's idea to buy Microsoft and bet on the Dallas Cowboys is probably one of the soundest plans on the whole show. With Radzinsky being led safely away to wherever Sawyer's map sent him, everything's looking good from all angles. He and Juliet get to leave the island for a sweet bell-bottomed lifestyle, and his friends can do whatever the hell they want... being in shackles absolves Sawyer of any responsibility toward them at this point. It's totally win-win for him.
But then, just like before, Kate arrives to screw everything up. Suddenly Sawyer is now one crazy landlord and a pair of short shorts away from starring in his own twisted version of Three's Company. So much for his plans of eating popcorn and watching the 78' Superbowl.
With the finale only a week away, it's obvious that the sub never gets to leave the island. I'm not sure how it happens, but if I had to guess? Kate convinces them to go back - which is a nice twist on Jack trying to convince her to go back two seasons ago. If Jack were to succeed in what he's trying to do, Juliet and Sawyer would never get to have their off-island life anyway. I'm thinking maybe Horace is also on the sub. He seems to owe allegiance to Jim Lafleur, and is probably pissed at being upstaged by Radzinsky. If I had to guess, he'd be the one to free them from the cuffs. Can't wait to see what happens to Phil.
There is No Spoon
As the episode progresses, Richard begins to understand Ben's point about Locke potentially "becoming a problem". It looks as if this new version of John Locke is going to pull back their curtain and expose the pile of bullshit that is Jacob. Or at least, maybe this is what Locke thinks. To Ben and Richard however, the story's probably a lot different.
There definitely has to be a Jacob. Not only have we seen his cabin, but we've heard him speak. We've also seen him actually re-wind time: at the end of Locke's first encounter with him, we saw that broken lantern (and the fire it started) instantly fix itself. We saw a ring of ash around Jacob's cabin, which originally seemed like it might've been there to protect it from being discovered or seen. Later on though, it became more and more obvious that the ring of ash was probably there for the opposite reason: to keep Jacob IN. We also saw a very worried look on Ben's face when he saw that the circle had been broken, almost as if he were worried that something had escaped. Incidentally, this is also when we started seeing quasi-evil Christian and Claire.
So Ben and Richard both know of Jacob, but instead of following his orders maybe they've just kept him imprisoned all this time. They do whatever's needed to keep the time loop on track, in order to keep whatever happened still happening correctly. "Jacob" is how they keep their followers in line. The refer to his "orders" whenever necessary, making sure everyone does what they're supposed to. No one can question Jacob, because no one has ever seen him. The very act of questioning him incurs everyone else's wrath. He becomes, in effect, the island's version of God.
On a side note, this also explains Widmore's wry reaction to Richard just after he'd brought young Ben to the temple: "Jacob wanted it done". As leader, Widmore knows Jacob said no such thing, but he also knows that's what Richard has already told his people. To keep up the illusion of this supreme being, he has to accept and acknowledge it in front of everyone else.
Now we find out Locke wants to kill Jacob. Perhaps he only wants to kill the illusion of Jacob - once he does that, he puts himself firmly in command. Or maybe he wants to free Jacob from whatever temporal prison he seems stuck in, and the only way to do that is through the same method he himself was resurrected: death. The only thing we can be sure of is that whatever spirit wants this done (the island? the smoke monster?) is now acting through Locke, and is probably trying to get rid of a long-standing island problem that both Richard and Ben were trying to hide or keep from it.
To sum it up, maybe Jacob did exist at one point. If so, I'm guessing he was a realllllllly bad dude. Maybe he caused assloads of problems and was finally contained, similar to a demon or something along those lines. It probably took a lot of time and a lot of effort to finally put Jacob down, and now Locke's talking about revisiting a very bad scenario. I think both Ben and Richard are genuinely afraid of Jacob - they don't seem to be pretending when it comes to that.
But what happens when Locke gets there? Can't wait to see it.


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«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 303 Newer› Newest»Interesting take on Hurley.
God knows he's gotta have some reason to be on the show that they're not giving us at the moment...
Awesome Post like always Vozzek
Must disagree on this: " Richard is the Other's constant. Since he never dies, he's the keeper of all the advanced knowledge "
Richard couldn't have seemed more confused and surprised throughout the course of the episode. If anything, the episode served to specifically show us that Richard is NOT the leader in any way, shape, or form.
Excellent review this week.
Your analysis of the Variable Hurley Theory was quite enjoyable.
amandakay1 said...
Must disagree on this: " Richard is the Other's constant. Since he never dies, he's the keeper of all the advanced knowledge "
Richard couldn't have seemed more confused and surprised throughout the course of the episode. If anything, the episode served to specifically show us that Richard is NOT the leader in any way, shape, or form.
=====================================
Well yeah, he's admitted this. He isn't leader in 1954 (though, he's ambiguous as to who it is), he isn't leader in 1977 (Widmore and Eloise are), he isn't leader in 2004 (Ben is), and he isn't leader in 2007/2008 (Locke is). He IS a constant though. Everything about him is the same. He's always the same age, is always high on the pecking order but never the 'leader'. An advisor or spokesman if you will as was stated in the episode. He stays in the shadows and lets other people do their things but ALWAYS makes sure the island keeps on going.
Remember what Richard said too. "He wasn't going to kill me." Richard seemed pretty damn confident about that.
I do agree about Hurley too.
once again. great recap. Especially the parts about Hurley and Jacob. I cant wait to see how it plays out!
Voz - how about all the parallels to other season finales - kind of tickles your loop theory - we are seeing the same situations with new characters involved
Question on something I picked up on.
Earlier this season, when the Losties were skipping through time (roughly late 2004 or early 2005), I was under the assumption that they were skipping backwards through time. When LOCKE was shot, I assumed it was by old Dharma folks.
Last night, Ben, Richard, and Locke are going for late night strolls on the beach and in the jungle in 2007.
This would seem to indicate that the Island can go forward into the future, not just back into time.
If that's the case, I don't think we were previously aware of that. Anyone recall any differently?
>>>Where old Locke was a follower, flowing along with the island's stream of never-ending (and repeating) events, new John Locke is suddenly anti-destiny, striding purposefully through the island's jungles and across its beaches in an attempt to make a difference.<<<
I disagree completely. New Locke most certainly isn't "anti-destiny". He still believes completely in destiny, it's just that now he knows exactly what his destiny is and how to accomplish it.
>>>I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again.<<<
Most of us can agree with that? Really? I can't stand how so many people simply assume that the continuous time loop idea is somehow a proven (or at least a generally accepted) fact of the show. People just throw it out there to prove whatever point they're making: "Well, its a time loop, so..."
Is the time loop theory a decent one? Yeah. Is that what's going on? Maybe. But is the time loop a proven fact? Definitely not. The fact is that there's really not much evidence at all for a continuous time loop. Speculation, yes. Evidence? No way.
>>>Desmond May be the Constant, But...<<<
Huh? Penny was the constant in that episode, not Desmond. It's been shown over and over again that Desmond is the variable. He's the one with the unique ability to change things. I'm sure Hurley will play an important role in endgame, but this ain't it.
And yes, Hurley was supposed to be on the island. When he was racing to make flight 815, there was already a 27 year-old picture of him wearing a DHARMA uniform hanging in the processing center on the island. He was meant to be on the island because he had already been on the island.
>>>If that's the case, I don't think we were previously aware of that. Anyone recall any differently?<<<
Umm, it was made perfectly clear that the island was moving all over in time, both backward and forward. One of the time jumps took them to a future in which their camp had been ruined and there were two boats on the beach, one with an Ajira water bottle in it. That's from a future that WE haven't even seen yet, though it would seem that we will see it in the finale.
''This would seem to indicate that the Island can go forward into the future, not just back into time.
If that's the case, I don't think we were previously aware of that. Anyone recall any differently?''
Yea we saw Illanas people shooting from the canoes, with Ajira bottle, pretty certain that was future.
Good Review not sure on Jacob being bad tho, Richard seemed a bit odd as well as clueless this episode and after his comment about Locke, keep an eye out for him.
Call me crazy, but I actually want to see Rose and Bernard in the finale.
I agree about Hurley being one of the most important Variable [if not THE variable], but like others have stated, he was meant to come to the Island due to the DHARMA pic of him in 77.
As for Juliet and Sawyer, I'm guessing they'll be keeping Jack from detonating the H-Bomb in order to preserve their relationship too [which'll cause the Swan Incident to happen as per WHH methinks]. No idea how they'll take over the sub though, unless Horace does set them free as you said. But they'll have to let it go once they're back to the Island because we know that Miles and his mother at least make it back to civilisation.
The whole Jacob thing is gonna be REAL interesting to see play out, and especially in relation to those two other spoilerific things. xD
You're quickly becoming my favorite recapper; thanks for the effort!
And I hope (pray, fingers crossed) that you're right about Hurley; I have a bad feeling about him surviving after next week.
Call me crazy, but I actually want to see Rose and Bernard in the finale.Yeah, I sweat TPTB said they would be - can anyone confirm that?
I still think they're gonna be Adam and Eve in the caves though...
"I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again."
Well, no. I think that theory looked very appealing when we had no answer for how Hawking, Ben, et al, seemed to "know" what was going to happen. Now we have a very simple explanation - they learned it from the 815'ers who traveled to the 70's - and this theory is really unnecessary and increasingly unsupported, imo. I know no one in real life who thinks this - only a few devotees of this and maybe another LOST column.
I also disagree that Locke is anti-destiny. Your very statement disproves your conclusion! He tells Sun they're there for a reason - that's practically the very definition of destiny: "We were destined to do this." Now, he may be anti-Jacob's-destiny-plan - that remains to be seen.
I think he's either killing "Jacob" b/c he knows it's future Locke trapped out of time or he's revealing it to be an Oz-like sham (calling to mind a S2 episode about Ben) or maybe he thinks Christian is Jacob's incarnation and is really a bad dude. We'll see!
I was surprised that Richard seemed not to recall meeting Locke in the 50's - couldn't tell if his not-knowing was genuine, although it seemed so. Not sure about Ben at this point - he's always perplexing. The finale looks like a fun one!
My mistake, totally forgot about the chase scene with the canoes. Please disregard my earlier comments. Thanks for clarifying.
I think grouping Richard and Ben together is incorrect in this instance. Ben seems to be playing both Locke and Richard simultaneously, by telling Richard that Locke is going to be a problem and by telling Locke that Richard has shown disapproval. I am not convince Ben is on Richard's side.
Vozz, love your recaps, but I have never bought into the time loop idea. I have always just shrugged that off as a no way in hell would TPTB do that. I also don't think that Hurley is the variable, however I do think he will be important to the story line.
I do believe that Ben is trying to manipulate Locke and the island into believing that he knows less than he is saying though.
Great thoughts, I too enjoy the Hurley theory. Especially if it was his voice giving the numbers earlier this season in one of the flashes. Now, we know the significance of the guitar case-but what does it ACTUALLY contain?
Voz - how about all the parallels to other season finales - kind of tickles your loop theory - we are seeing the same situations with new characters involved
Yup. This is like the 3rd of 4th time Sawyer's trying to leave the island during the finale. Hehe...
I disagree completely. New Locke most certainly isn't "anti-destiny". He still believes completely in destiny, it's just that now he knows exactly what his destiny is and how to accomplish it.
Of course you disagree. It doesn't fit in with your airtight idea of what's happening.
Most of us can agree with that? Really? I can't stand how so many people simply assume that the continuous time loop idea is somehow a proven (or at least a generally accepted) fact of the show. People just throw it out there to prove whatever point they're making: "Well, its a time loop, so..."
Is the time loop theory a decent one? Yeah. Is that what's going on? Maybe. But is the time loop a proven fact? Definitely not. The fact is that there's really not much evidence at all for a continuous time loop. Speculation, yes. Evidence? No way.
Let's see... Locke telling Richard to tell Locke something? A compass that passes from one person to the other and back again? Ben telling Richard "This isn't the first time we've done this" back in S3? No loops? C'mon, now you're just being stubborn.
Funny thing Zorro, you use the word 'conclusive' all the time when describing your own theories. But everyone else's? There doesn't seem to be enough evidence in the world to convince you.
there was already a 27 year-old picture of Hurley wearing a DHARMA uniform hanging in the processing center on the island
Only means he was there this time around... doesn't mean he was 'meant' to be there. If this all happens in a repeated loop, I'm theorizing this is Hugo's first time through the loop. He's new.
Call me crazy, but I actually want to see Rose and Bernard in the finale.
Mike, you're crazy. :P
I also disagree that Locke is anti-destiny. Your very statement disproves your conclusion! He tells Sun they're there for a reason - that's practically the very definition of destiny: "We were destined to do this." Now, he may be anti-Jacob's-destiny-plan - that remains to be seen.
You're misquoting Locke here. He actually says "I don't think we went through all this for nothing, Sun." Seems to me that Locke's looking to change things up a little bit. If nothing can ever change, then everyone's there for nothing (including him).
I think grouping Richard and Ben together is incorrect in this instance. Ben seems to be playing both Locke and Richard simultaneously, by telling Richard that Locke is going to be a problem and by telling Locke that Richard has shown disapproval. I am not convinced Ben is on Richard's side.
Oh, I agree with you. And I didn't group them together in terms of current agenda, I only grouped them together in terms of how they used Jacob in the past (to control the Others). Ben is definitely playing Locke, whether he's the smoke monster or the island itself. As for Richard, he's probably thinking that promoting John Locke to leader might've been a mistake.
"Adam said...
My mistake, totally forgot about the chase scene with the canoes. Please disregard my earlier comments. Thanks for clarifying."
Your point of "flashing into the future" was corroborated, not canceled out. They flashed forward to be chased by Ajira, and Locke flashed forward to be given the compass.
This brings the question: What ELSE has been a flash forward?
"We also saw a very worried look on Ben's face when he saw that the circle had been broken, almost as if he were worried that something had escaped. Incidentally, this is also when we started seeing quasi-evil Christian and Claire. "
I don't remember the circle being broken at all? Which episode did this happen in? Hurley saw Christian in Jacob's cabin in the first episode of season 4..... The only time they went to the cabin before this was in Season 3, and it wasn't broken then, was it?
Desmond was Faraday's constant, just as Penny was Desmond's constant. I don't think it's clear yet just who the variable(s) is/are. One could argue that Desmond was "The Constant" because that episode was a Desmond centric episode and Faraday was "The Variable" because it was a Faraday centric episode but that would be pretty disappointing if our only Variable is dead. Hurley makes a compelling case and his attachment to the guitar case will hopefully be explained. However, I think the truth will be that we have multiple variables in play just as we had multiple constants.
Did anyone else notice that Jin had maybe one line in the whole episode? He had an entire scene with Miles, Hurley & Dr. Chang (the history quiz) where he stood there and said nothing. Then he finally got one line later on. Poor Jin - he even speaks English now!
Also, can anyone offer any thoughts on why it was important in "The Constant" that Desmond would be Faraday's constant? Given that Faraday is dead now and never needed a constant, it seems superfluous, but maybe not...
Vozz,
Totally agree with you that Ben was keeping Jacob "trapped" in the cabin. I am beginning to wonder if Ben was really telling the truth and he is the "good guy" by keeping Jacob trapped, assuming Jacob is no good. I am confused as to why, when Locke first joined the Others Richard insinuated that they wanted to get Ben out and have Locke in charge, that they were in fact also questioning Ben's ability to speak to Jacob. I got the feeling last night that Richard and Ben both didn't want Locke to seek out Jacob.
Vozz it's good to have you back. Youve spent too much time over the last few weeks getting caught up in the WHH battle. This week was what its all about over the last few years. Ideas and theories that i hadnt thought of and things that are right out there. Dont always agree but thats the beauty of it all. Anyway.....Maybe the sub docks at the underwater station (if it exists yet) and thats the catalist for Sawyer/Kate/Juliet not making it away in the sub. Good stuff. Cant wait for next week. Thank god there is no week break!
Yeah, I'm definitely not buying the time loop theory just yet either.
"I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again."
When Desmond turned the failsafe key, I think he became unstuck in time and his consciousness was able to travel to different points in his past. But I don't know what basis we have to conclude that everyone on the island is going through a time loop. That whole concept has never been referenced - there has been time travel and some instances of people giving items to others which they then receive back (compass, journal), but I think it's too much to expect the audience to buy that the motivations of the Others were to preserve a time loop to prevent something bad from happening. I hope they come up with something much cooler than that.
I'm intrigued by the Hurley stuff. Jorge was one of the first actors cast too, if I'm not mistaken, so his role might be a pivotal one in the grand scheme. I still think Desmond is "the variable", the one who is "uniquely and miraculously special", but I think Hurley will be important.
I don't think we've been given enough on Jacob to have much of an opinion, but I agree that he does exist in some fashion and it's not just someone's creation to keep others in line.
What if new "Destiny Jack" is the start of the whole chain reaction by detonating the bomb next week. What Eloise and Whitmore sending Faraday back was to set him up to kill him so he did not start it the first time.
************************************************
Watch your comments everyone. Be respectful to other peoples opinions. I won't ask again.
************************************************
"Voz - how about all the parallels to other season finales - kind of tickles your loop theory - we are seeing the same situations with new characters involved
Yup. This is like the 3rd of 4th time Sawyer's trying to leave the island during the finale. Hehe..."
Jack swimming to Jughead - Charlie swims to Looking Glass
Sawyer beat by Radz tied to chair - Charlie beat by Bonnie tied to chair
Sawyer Juliet leaving, Kate joins in - Kate Sawyer leaving,Sawyer jumps joins Juliet
Locke leading group to new location - Jack leading group to new location
Keamys team - Bram and Illanas team
And of course someones always captured by the others
Either the writers have run out of ideas or theyre trying to tell us something
great recap
i love your theory about hurley
"to buy that the motivations of the Others were to preserve a time loop to prevent something bad from happening."
See Eloise (an other) at the ring shop in Flashes B4 your Eyes
Vozz, question for you:
"We also saw a very worried look on Ben's face when he saw that the circle had been broken, almost as if he were worried that something had escaped. Incidentally, this is also when we started seeing quasi-evil Christian and Claire. "
I don't remember the circle being broken at all? Which episode did this happen in? Hurley saw Christian in Jacob's cabin in the first episode of season 4..... The only time they went to the cabin before this was in Season 3, and it wasn't broken then, was it?
Nice write up. Except didn't the wayward Rose talk Hurley out of blowing up the storeroom? I've finally settled on how I think Phil dies- we get a nice slow motion face melt (Indiana Jones style) as jughead goes off. No more eyebrows buddy. Or at least i hope.
>>>Of course you disagree. It doesn't fit in with your airtight idea of what's happening.<<<
No, I disagree with your statement that Locke is anti-destiny because it doesn't fit with what we've seen and heard on the show. Locke has never once said anything about changing destiny. He's never once implied that he has stopped believing in destiny. In fact, everything that he's said since being resurrected has been along the lines of him being there "for a reason". (cf. his comments to Sun) Those are the exact things he said before his death when he believed whole-heartedly in destiny.
>>>Let's see... Locke telling Richard to tell Locke something? A compass that passes from one person to the other and back again? Ben telling Richard "This isn't the first time we've done this" back in S3? No loops? C'mon, now you're just being stubborn.<<<
You should try responding to what I've actually written. I never denied that there are causal loops. There are tons of them. You pointed two of them out. But there's a world of difference between noticing the causal loops and coming up with a theory about how there's one giant loop that started at some point and looped back at some point that everyone has been trapped in for decades. There's no evidence of that at all.
Like I said, I don't mind the theory. I don't think that it's true, but it's a decent theory. My problem is with you and others who just assume that the giant loop theory is common knowledge and generally accepted. That's not true.
>>>Funny thing Zorro, you use the word 'conclusive' all the time when describing your own theories. But everyone else's? There doesn't seem to be enough evidence in the world to convince you.<<<
Funny thing, Vozz, but that's just not true. I never say that my theories are conclusive. The facts, however, are. So when we're talking about the facts, they're conclusive and I'm not afraid to say so. And there are no facts to back up the assertion that everyone's caught in a giant time loop. So if you want to say, "Here's my theory. It's just a guess..." that's fine. But don't say, "Everyone knows the giant time loop is a fact, so..."
>>>Only means he was there this time around... doesn't mean he was 'meant' to be there. If this all happens in a repeated loop, I'm theorizing this is Hugo's first time through the loop. He's new.<<<
See, this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You can't use the giant time loop theory to back up what you say, because the giant time loop theory isn't a fact. It doesn't count as evidence. You're using an assumption to prove another assumption. It doesn't work that way.
>>>Seems to me that Locke's looking to change things up a little bit.<<<
Would you care to quote one thing he's said or point to one thing he's done that would demonstrate Locke trying to change things?
>>>If nothing can ever change, then everyone's there for nothing (including him).<<<
That's not true. Locke is there to fulfill his destiny. He's there to do what he's meant to do. That's been clear since season 1. How does that not give him anything to do? Fulfilling your destiny and saving the island seems like quite a bit to do actually.
i think i little tidying up on the hurley theory and it might actually work... it might just be me but i feel like out of all the characters, hurley is one of the ones we know least about. didnt hurley also say something to jack in the mental inst. about not splitting on sides? i dun know... but hurley has never really taken a strong stance on science or faith. hes kinda just there for the party, i feel. its something the writers would totally flip on us too.
alpert, ben, jacob... i think the whole lot of them are bad. when ben took locke to the cabin and jacob said help me, do you think ben was pretending to see jacob? he just knew where jacob likes to sit?
boo sad to nice alpert go and cant wait to see bad alpert arise!
i miss rose and bernard too... they cracked me u...
>>>Either the writers have run out of ideas or theyre trying to tell us something<<<
I don't really think either is true. They're called motifs. Good writers and composers use them all the time. It's an artistic way of telling a story or presenting a melody. I wouldn't read too much into it other than to appreciate the artistry.
>>>But I don't know what basis we have to conclude that everyone on the island is going through a time loop. That whole concept has never been referenced - there has been time travel and some instances of people giving items to others which they then receive back (compass, journal), but I think it's too much to expect the audience to buy that the motivations of the Others were to preserve a time loop to prevent something bad from happening.<<<
Yes, exactly! I can't understand why some people simply assume that time loop is generally accepted when it's never been mentioned or hinted at once on the show. That doesn't necessarily means it's impossible, but it does mean that it isn't anything close to fact.
I also agree that there really wouldn't be any way to present the time loop concept to the audience in a dramatic and believable way. Unless you go back and show all of the previous loops, there's really no reason to introduce that concept in the first place. Otherwise, you have one character say, "We've been in a loop for decades", and then the other characters say, "Oh, I never knew that. I don't remember anything from those loops, so I guess I'll just continue on with things as I had been". Not very exciting.
Tact
–noun
1. a keen sense of what to say or do to avoid giving offense; skill in dealing with difficult or delicate situations.
2. a keen sense of what is appropriate, tasteful, or aesthetically pleasing
Zorro
I haven't refreshed the comments for a bit but, I am sure that by now someone has pointed out to you that Desmond is a constant. He is Daniel's constant.
>>>I haven't refreshed the comments for a bit but, I am sure that by now someone has pointed out to you that Desmond is a constant. He is Daniel's constant.<<<
Yeah, but the whole point of the episode was Desmond, the variable, searching for his constant to save his life. Desmond being Daniel's constant branched off from that main point, but as Daniel is now dead, it doesn't seem to mean much.
Zorro, you don't make the rules here, I do.
Abide by them or don't come here and post.
Respect other peoples ideas/thoughts and theories.
Well i dunno why people are getting so upset, its only a TV show afterall. I for one found Vozzeks article interesting and there is definately something going on with hurley.
I need clarification on Locke's compass.
What's the history path of the compass?
Even Lostpedia hasn't elaborated on it yet.
JUGHEAD (1954)
Time-traveling Locke v.1 gives Richard the compass.
CABIN FEVER (1962)
Richard presents boy Locke with items, including the compass, which Locke does not pick. The compass was probably the correct item.
FOLLOW THE LEADER (1997)
Locke v.2 asks Richard if he has the compass he gave him in 1954.
Locke v.2 tells Richard to give time-traveling Locke v.1 the compass.
BECAUSE YOU LEFT (1997)
Richard gives time-traveling Locke v.1 the compass.
Locke v.1 time-travels to 1954.
The mere fact that Chang questioned Hurley and his incompetence of not knowing the president or the year he was born making him tell Chang he's from the future further pushed Chang to get people OFF the island. Daniel was meant to go back to plant the seed in Chang, then get shot by his mother. Hurley is there to confirm they are from the future, which is why Charolette and Miles get off the island.
I'm sure he'll become more important later on, but I doubt he's the Variable. I still think it's Desmond, as he's the only one that we've seen have something change from the past. Desmond and Daniel's "instant" memory conversation is proof that "Whatever happened, happened" does NOT apply to him.
Whoops, I meant 2007, not 1997. The question is the same. Where did the compass originate, or is it a paradoxical artifact?
@theusualsuspect Yea ur right...i hadnt thought of that. If Hurley wasnt there then Chang wouldnt have evacuated
@joshua
...good question...and I loved your summary of the compass, I needed it!
"Whoops, I meant 2007, not 1997. The question is the same. Where did the compass originate, or is it a paradoxical artifact?"
Sawyer would tell you it came from the compass factory - but seriously there were two quotes that may hold more weight than the ep led on
1. When the compass was called 'rusty'
2. When Richard mentions another group currently at the temple
@ Joshua The compass follows a linear flat timeline in the regular world. Until however, it enters the islands time storm, which curves the compass timeline too form a loop??
Lostpedia says, on the compass page, that the compass used to test boy Locke was not the time-traveling compass. I am going to need an instance of "citation needed" on that.
@Dark and W.S.T.K.S.U.S1E8
All of my ideas are right. All of everyone else's ideas are poopy, and your heads are filled with farts.
I win Tact War '09.
The Threes Company Line - incredible! As to who or what Jacob is - we should no more going into season 5. The cabin is a recent phenomenon so Jacob must predate that time period or must be retrojected into the deep past from some point around 1977.
Joshua
Locke did pick the compass...what he didn't pick was the "Book of Laws" and picked the knife instead. Glad that you brought up that scene. Locke is breaking the Law by taking the Others to see Jacob and using the knife to kill him. I think Locke is starting to become a little more like Ben. He's willing to lie, con, and murder to protect the Island and be #1 Guy. He doesn't want to take orders from Jacob he wants to take his orders directly from the Island and replace Jacob.
i agree that ben is lying! he always lies about EVERYTHING, and his knowledge runs sooooo deep he feels like he's always one step ahead of john etc
he prob believes that john won't even be able to see jacob anyway, thats why he isnt even bothering to stop john from visiting him
Email me Zorro and I'll be happy to discuss it.
Everyone: Any further posts which is NOT discussing this recap will be deleted. Repeat offenses will get you banned.
I love how Lost ramps up going into a finale. Here are my thoughts on Follow the Leader.
"You're misquoting Locke here. He actually says "I don't think we went through all this for nothing, Sun." Seems to me that Locke's looking to change things up a little bit. If nothing can ever change, then everyone's there for nothing (including him)."
Rephrasing Locke: "We went through all this for *something*, Sun." There's a purpose in it. It's our destiny.
I don't see any evidence that Locke is trying to change things. It seems, rather, that he's doing the same that he's always done - trying to discern what the Island wants so he can do it. I think he suspects that if he kills Jacob (as the Island has apparently implicated he should - freeing Jacob, perhaps? or removing an imposter leader?), that will also result in what Sun wants - the return of the time-travelers. He figures whatever is good for the Island will be good for all of them.
Loving the Phil theories, and I really like the idea that Radzinsky may have gotten the blast door map from Sawyer. (seems unlikely, though) I also like an idea I saw elsewhere that Radzinsky's sojourn at the Swan may have been a punishment or self-imposed penance for his hasty/aggressive actions leading up to the Incident, for which he is somehow held or feels responsible.
I've been confused about the compass since they introduced it. It totally seems like a paradox to me - a compass with no real origin, and a perpetual loop in time. The only explanation I can see is if 2007 Richard shows the rusty compass to Lockev2, then gives another, new compass to Lockev1. Otherwise, wouldn't the compass Lockev1 carries back to 1954 be rusty, and hence, rusty when Richard first receives it?
Although he is going about it in the total wrong way I have to agree with Zorro on most issues. Especially on the Locke issue. I can actually say almost factually that Locke is not antidestiny. Last time Locke went antidestiny antifaith he lost the ability to use his legs again. If the island took away his legs for temporarily losing faith, it sure as hell would not ressurect him if he went "antidestiny." What has happened is a Matrix like epiphany where John has realized he is "The one" and can do whatever he wants so long as he respects the islands wishes.
As for the time loop theories. While they make sense for this seasons mysteries, I will be very upset if the entire mythology of the show ends up being a giant time loop. I am one of those guys who thinks the sole purpose of everyone being on the island from the beginning was to find a part of themselves that was missing or lost. What Jack and Sayid are trying to do absolutely can NOT happen. They were meant to be on the island. All of their experiences were necessary to becoming whole again. Erasing everything that happened, assuming it would work, would leave them sad, pitiful people on the plane to LA. I realizing I am bringing up the mythology from back in season 1 and 2 but I think it is important the show doesnt lose track of what made us all engrossed in it in the first place. Also the time loop does not explain a long list of mysteries some that more than likely will never be answered in 18 more episodes.
What is the smoke monster?
Why does the island have the power to heal the sick?
How did Locke come back to life?
How can Miles speak to dead people?
Why did the numbers win the lottery for Hurley and bring bad luck upon him?
Why is creepy Christian walking around the island?
Where the hell is Claire, Rose and Bernard?
What is the primary purpose of the others?
How did the black rock get on the island?
Why was Libby in the mental institution with Hurley?
Why is Walt special?
Need I continue? It is starting to make me panic that these questions are not going to be answered and that one broad bailout by the writers in the last episode will make every event either not real, or explain them all in a vague way.
wow that was a huge rant for my first post ever on this site! :).
Seriously though. At least finally it seems as though they are at least going to explain Jacob. But as someone who has watched every season a bajillion times I want answers from the very beginning too!
I've been reading Vozz's column and the follow-up discussion for some time.
As columns, all Vozz's writings are opinions and theories based on his perception of the show. We can say the same about Zorro's. For instance, if one cannot accept time loops, he won't see any "fact" about it, because his interpretation is biased towards the non-existence of time-loops.
I prefer to watch the show in a open-minded way. Whatever happens, happens (pun intended!). Maybe it's time loops, maybe it's ancient Egyptian Gods playing chess... and all the "unpopular" theories: snow globe, someone's dream, etc, etc...
I'd like to stress that since it is Vozz's columns, he CAN take his theory as granted while he writes it, because he believes it (well, it is "his baby"!). If he writes "This proves..." or "I guess it is..." is a matter of style. FACT IS that we know it is just HIS opinions and he doesn't need to call our attention to that. The name of the column is: << Things that "I" (Vozz) noticed. >>.
you provide great insight. I think that I think the same way you do. I like to think around things. Love reading your post every week the Hurley theory is sweet. Keep up the great work!!
People, what do you really think about this erasing history??? WAKE UP, people, it will not happen, thit, that bomb will blown up, it will be headed only to saving those people on the island, that they will not die because of Dharma and Our Losties will come back to 2008 to Locke and co. That´s all, no erasing destiny, Jack will do this, because it will cause this "The Incident". And I think, that Jack will understand it yet before explosion maybe.
Writers only are trying to scare you, people.
I think you're on to something with Hurley. While I wouldn't give him the title "The Variable" quite yet, I agree that he's going to be very important. He's flying under the radar of the big players.
Last finale, I thought that the island was doing everything in it's power to keep the O6 on the island. It tried making the helicopter run out of gas, it tried blowing it up on the freighter, and it finally tried to move in time while the helicopter was in it's "bubble." After reading your Hurley theory, maybe the island was simultaneously drawing Kate, Jack, Sun, and Desmond in while rejecting Hurley and possibly Aaron. The island figured it would be easier to get them all to leave and then draw the ones it wants back. It used Claire to get Aaron to stay away, and it almost succeeded in keeping Hurley away.
there has 2 be a reason for the two timelines though. I just dont see any reason why Sun would end up with Locke. I know ive been going on about it but it makes sense for both the 1977 and 2007 events to happen simultaneously and both locke n Jack cancel each other out, two sides of the equation , similar to the matrix
"self-imposed penance for his hasty/aggressive actions leading up to the Incident, for which he is somehow held or feels responsible."
Nice -
And whether y'all agree with Voz or not - at least give him credit for getting something out for discussion like 10 hours after the show airs - he obviously works hard for something he prob/def doesnt make millions of dollars doing.
Always dig your recap's. You might be onto something with the Hurley=Variable thing but I can't figure out why Ben went through all of what he did to try and convince Hurley to come back if he wasn't supposed to be there in the first place.
Also I think that Ben asked Hurley "who told you to get on the plane" because he hadn't provided Hurley with that specific info (the day, the time, the flight). I don't think it was because he wasn't supposed to be on it.
I love the fact that you think Hurley could be the variable. Earlier this week I was thinking about Hurley and how he is a quiet leader and influence on the others. For instance, in the first episode, he took on the task of distributing the food from the plane; he decided they needed recreation when he made the golf course; he made the list of who was on the plane; he motivated Sawyer into being more of a leader while Jack was away; he influenced some of the Losties to go with Locke; saved Jin, Sayid and Bernard with the van; he can see Jacob (the cabin at least) and last week he helped make the decision to go back to the beach. There are also times that the lead characters look to Hurley before making decisions and he shakes his head. And we can't forget that if Hurley hadn't been on the plane, that Walt wouldn't have had any comic books! Hurley is a big, but subtle force in this story. He even had a connection to the island before any of the others (if you don't count the time travel) . . . and that's the numbers. I've always been puzzled about why Dave (the island, smokie or whatever) wanted Hurley to kill himself.
About the repeating time loop: I don't think that is what is happening. If it is, I would think we would have seen evidence of this happening sooner with them. Why wait until the last season to pull this creative device out of the box? We don't really have alot of episodes left to continue the whole series. Things are looping, but I don't seem them doing it over and over again with them trapped. There actions are very similar but the circumstances are not. I see it as a chain of events, not a repetition of the same ones.
And I also have to comment on Jin. The guy speaks English now and can actually participate in scenes. They really haven't given he and Sun much to do except talk about finding the other one. They have become Rose and Bernard.
Regardless of who is right or who is wrong, the show is a great story! For some of folks watching the show, they want to believe that this all can happen in real life... Whatever happen to enjoying the storytelling? When I watched The Lord of the Rings, I didn't argue with the writers how the show didn't make sense because there is no such thing as an Orc.
At the end of the day, we are not the writers of the show and anyone that is writing their thoughts on this site is merely speculating on how the show is being told. Unless you have insights that not even Darkufo has... then, I suggest everyone to give respect.
Also, Zorro points out "facts" of the show... Granted, there is some facts that are just given. For example, Daniel is Eloise son, etc... etc... However, there is some "facts" that have been pointed out that I would have to argue is all perception of the person viewing it. Plus, I have read many books and seen many movies that the writers make you believe one thing all the way through the story...just to pull the rug out from underneath where you were standing. Whatever you are seeing on the screen right now with Lost, most likely is not what it seems.
Didn't notice Widmore place his hand on Ellie's stomach 8/ That's why I read your Things :)
Nice recap!
Personally I believe that Locke wants to kill Jacob, because the Island wants to get rid of the old incarnation of the Island, because Jacob is no longer capable of fulfilling the needs and desires of the Island. Jacob's old, decaying cabin and him sitting on chair (implying he's incapable of walking) seems to reflect this.
I wonder why everyone is assuming that there is a time loop, and it seems I got my answer: A major recapper is writing about it like it's the most obvious thing there is...
There are causal loops guys, and they have nothing to do with time loops!
Richard telling John to do X, and John telling Richard to tell himself to do X is a causal loop, just like the compass - it's just time travel.
So, Vozzek, the only evidence you got is Ben saying "it's not the first time we've done this"?!
I believe "time loop" first appeared after the Comic Con video with Chang, and it took on a meaning of its own...
@ Rachel
The reason why Faraday wrote that in his journal was because he did not know if he would need one. Hence, if anything happens.... if he were to conscience time travel like Desmond and Teresa (his g/f lab assistant). He's stuck on an island and the only person he knew off of that island was Desmond, because Desmond went to visit him. He can't go and see Jack because they don't know each other off the island.
It was never really meant to mean that something was going to happen to Faraday, I'm pretty sure of that, just to solidify the theory of having a constant off of the island.
Horace died in the purge, Cabin Fever is where this is explained
Vozzek, I am a Locke fan and in my humble opinion he is the soul of the show. This show is not about sci-fi or numbers or pockets of electro-magnetic energy. It is about people. The characters that crashed are individuals of troubled and conflicted pasts who are given a chance to escape the slavery of their own mistakes: in other words to live redeemed by a greater sense of purpose. This is what the show has pointed to throughout its course. This theme is constant.
Locke is the embodiment of this theme. Once more, destiny is not a mechanism where people lack free will. Destiny is the choice to live with PURPOSE. One cannot construct purpose but choose to apply one's gifts to what they were meant for. Locke was destined to be a leader. From the beginning when he realised the Island miraculously restored his legs, he began to believe. Locke did not will his legs to walk. He saw something special that could not be explained logically and he began to believe in something greater.
This is what all the characters are discovering: the importance of the past and journey from selfishness toward PURPOSE. These characters have been coasting through life on their selfish whims, but As bachelor Jin tells his roommate in S2:5, "That's not what a man does. A man needs a goal in life." Locke was the first to find his, and it was a long and painful journey to understanding and trusting his purpose. But he has it. That is why he is a different Locke after his return and resurrection. As he tell Richard who is asking about the difference: "I HAVE A PURPOSE NOW."
This phrase is key to the entire show. And it is somewhat echoed by Jack who is now searching for his destiny but is being lured by the chance to erase the past. But he is wrong. As Locke demonstrated during the time skipping when he had the opportunity to talk to himself at the point of his greatest desolation right before the light in the hatch went off--he left himself alone because he needed that part of his life to get to where he is. The darkness provided growth by testing his character, as all persons have been tested on the Island. That is what the debate between Jack and Kate is about. She is not the same person she was before the crash. She did find someone whom she loved and challenged her not to escape in Jack and she did find purpose in taking care of Aaron. Jack is the one who has failed to find any hope in the darkness he lived through and only seeks to erase it all clasping a utilitarian argument that more people would live rather than seeing the meaning in every sacrifice. That is what Locke is alluding to when he says, "I don't think we went through all this for nothing, Sun."
Of all the characters to convince Jack otherwise it may be Sawyer who would be the most convincing as he had spent most of his pre-Island life anticipating revenge while grifting others. When he was forced to live on the Island three years, he took full advantage of living to the best of his potential discovering leadership, responsibility, friendship, trust, and love. This is his potential, his purpose, his destiny.
Destiny is not a bad thing or something that takes away meaning. It is exactly the opposite: that which gives all the Losties hope for an enriched and redeemed life where their purposes can be fulfilled.
So stop worrying about time loops and constants and variables. And listen to the story of the characters' journeys. That is point to the show. The way to exit the spiritual state of being LOST is with purpose (destiny/Faith).
I believe they confirmed somewhere that Ben was keeping Jacob trapped or something to the effect of Ben and Jacob having a master slave relationship...
Wow, Dave, that was extremely insightful and eloquent. You should be writing recaps. You're absolutely right that this show is ultimately not about coming up with the obscure theory of the week or reading way too much into tiny little things. This show is ultimately about the characters.
Locke hasn't denied his destiny. That wouldn't be true to his character. He has now discovered and embraced his destiny, his purpose. That's what makes this new Locke so confident and powerful. He has become the man that he always knew he was supposed to be. To say that Locke is now a rogue who is anti-destiny is to ignore the facts and miss this beautiful development in Locke's character.
If time is rewound, Hurley will not be on the plane. The only reason he was in Australia was because of the numbers. Without the hatch, there will be no numbers.
Great recap Vozz!
I think you're right on about Hurley – he "opened the box" (not sure what that does to him being a variable), he jump-started the numbers (by using them in the lottery) – accidentally setting something into motion; just as he stepped out onto the balcony and all those people died – it wasn’t his fault, because the balcony was already overloaded, but he tipped the scales, so to speak. He set something into motion.
And, right on about Ben – talk about a “long con” – I consider "The Long Con" to be one of the most important Lost episodes because it taught us what a long con is and what it involves. Why? Because, in the realm of Lost, we need to know.
Re Ben – I also keep thinking about Ben and Widmore’s conversation in Widmore’s penthouse suite – Widmore says, “I know who you are boy. I know WHAT you are.” What does that mean? Does that relate to what happened to Ben when Richard took him into the temple as a boy – he was permanently altered/changed somehow?
“Ben was never meant to be a chosen leader of the island anyway.” – probably right, but I’m not sure sure Locke is either – he seems to be creating his own destiny so it’s hard to know if he was really ever “chosen.” He tells Richard in 1954 that Jacob chose him as the leader (but Locke has only seen Christian and I don’t think Christian represents Jacob); he tells Richard his birth information; he tells Richard to go take the bullet out of his leg and tell him he has to die and return the 06; and it all comes full-circle, just like the compass.
I'm also on board w/ the time loop theory. Since S1, there have been so many repetitions -- names, events, objects, symbols, actions, etc. As if things happen over and over again but w/ slight changes (until someone somewhere gets it right).
Has anyone else thought that detonation of the H-Bomb is what causes the incident? It was always suppose to be blow up. Daniel had the right idea, but the wrong solution for the problem. Instead of blowing up the energy they should be leaving it alone.
>>>I'm also on board w/ the time loop theory. Since S1, there have been so many repetitions -- names, events, objects, symbols, actions, etc. As if things happen over and over again but w/ slight changes (until someone somewhere gets it right).<<<
Those are called motifs. As I explained earlier, motifs are a common literary and musical device by which a certain theme is repeated several times in slightly different ways. LOST makes wonderful use of this artistic device.
But don't read any more into than that. It's not some hidden clue or anything. It's simply good writers writing well.
Besides, these motifs aren't evidence of one giant time loop anyway. According to the theory we are seeing one particular loop out of thousands of previous loops. If that theory is correct, there wouldn't necessarily be any repetition within one loop--there would be repetition from one loop to the next. So just because some things are similar within one loop doesn't prove that there are any other loops.
So, for example, if Jack leaves the island in 2004 by helicopter and then Sawyer leaves the island in 1977 by submarine, that's not proof of multiple loops, that's just proof of similar things happening within one loop. In order to prove the existence of multiple loops you would need to see Jack leave by helicopter in 2004, and then see him leave by submarine in 2004 in a different loop.
I'm not sure if that's clear, but hopefully you get the point.
Zorro wrote, "But don't read any more into than that. It's not some hidden clue or anything. It's simply good writers writing well."
Are you on the writing staff of Lost? How can you be so certain what they are doing? You write as if you are an expert or have insights to what the writers actual mean.
When tell others they are wrong, how can you be so certain?
Time loop or not, zorro can't be denied on the motifs. Although we can't be sure that those motifs are not used with a purpose. For now, let's assume that they are not.
I think the whole time-loop theory is very difficult (impossible) to explain.
Taking Zorro's example: << In order to prove the existence of multiple loops you would need to see Jack leave by helicopter in 2004, and then see him leave by submarine in 2004 in a different loop. >>
Why? In MY conception of time loop, I'd say: << In order to prove the existence of multiple loops you would need to see JACK leave by HELICOPTER in 2004, and then see him (JACK) leave by HELICOPTER in 2004 in a different loop. >>
Meaning that "different" time loops have same who (Jack), how (Helicopter) and when (2004). We can assume that the who doesn't know what happened in the other interactions. For instance, Sayid thought he should kill 12-years-old Ben to change future events, but how can Sayid know that? What if Sayid needed to shot Ben in the first place and he just repeated all the previous interactions?
This is not back and white...
Can't help but remember that when John was at the cabin he heard Jacob say "Help me." Maybe John is going to help Jacob "Move on" by killing him. Since we are not really sure if John is really alive (His reaction to Ben's comment about out of body experiences.) maybe John is Jacobs replacement in the cabin and he just has to evict(kill) the old tenant before he can move in.
Great recap....nice thoughts on Hurley. Still wondering where the compass started! :)
JackLord! Hey, fellow H-50 fan.....sure you'll agree with me that Darlton should pay some homage to THE original Aloha State-based show, aside from Glenn Cannon's S2 appearance and using Paradise Park as a setting for Hydra Island.....anyhow, not sure how it's physically possible, but given Richard's chivalrous (but probably quite pragmatic) gesture of stepping in front of Ellie and her son's impressive abilities, it causes me to wonder if HE - and not Charles - might be the father of Daniel, especially with what seems to be Widmore's cavalier attitude about Faraday. And it might explain the hospital scene with older Eloise more fully.....
Some things I thought...
What if Richard, long ago, discovered the island... but it wasn't an island yet. It was an oasis, in the deserts of Tunisia. Richard lived there, with his family. But one day, Richard discovered a mysterious wheel in the jungle. He turned it-- the oasis, and him both were unstuck in time. Richard was removed from his loved ones and everything he knew.
Once he realized this, Richard kept turning the wheel, in a mad attempt to get back to his own time. But each time, he would just jump to different periods of time in the future of the island. He doesn't age, because at every point, he's jumping to it from a previous point.
Richard can't get the island to stop moving and go back to where it belongs. But he figures there will be someone who can. Someone who he's been looking for his entire life. At first, he thinks it could be Widmore. Then Ben. And now Locke.
Whatever Locke and the survivors are doing, they're doing it (unknowingly) as part of Richard's attempts to get the island to stop its trippy time jumps.
The series will end with the island back in ancient egypt, and the 815ers back where they belong as well.
>>>Are you on the writing staff of Lost? How can you be so certain what they are doing? You write as if you are an expert or have insights to what the writers actual mean.<<<
Well, I'm not on the writing staff of LOST (I wish!), but I am a professional writer. I know how writing works. I know the tools and devices that writers use. That's why I can tell you with certainty that they are making use of motifs. How can I be so certain that they aren't using motifs to hint at a time loop? Well, for the reason I stated above. Repeated motifs throughout one loop are meaningless. You'd have to see multiple loops to be able to use motifs to prove anything.
>>>Why? In MY conception of time loop, I'd say: << In order to prove the existence of multiple loops you would need to see JACK leave by HELICOPTER in 2004, and then see him (JACK) leave by HELICOPTER in 2004 in a different loop.<<<
Well, that's true. But I was leaving the door open for the claim that the loops are basically the same, with some differences. That's why I allowed for the difference in vehicular transport. But the point remains the same. In order to use these motifs to prove anything, you have to see multiple loops. Of course, we haven't seen multiple loops, because there are no multiple loops.
>>>I think the whole time-loop theory is very difficult (impossible) to explain.<<<
Yes, exactly! In order for any theory to hold water, it not only has to make logical sense, but it also has to be able to be explained in the context of the show in a clear and entertaining way. For the life of me, I just can't imagine how you would explain the concept of multiple loops in such a way. There's no way to get the audience invested in these multiple loops if they've never seen them or even conceived that they might exist. Simply having a character say, "Hey, we've been looping for a few decades" would fall flat. Who cares if they've been looping if we haven't seen it, if it has no ramifications for the current loop, and if it can be erased by changing the future. Essentially it's an unnecessary addition to the story they're telling.
Anyone remember at the beginning of the season when Sawyer told Jack, Kate and Hurley they were in 1977. Hurley nearly panicked and said "WHAT IF THEY ASK US STUFF LIKE - WHO IS PRESIDENT? Sawyer replied.."It Aint A Quiz Show, Hugo" Funny how this exact thing came back to bite him.
zorro, don't think I don't believe in time-loops by my words!
To explain time-loops is as hard to explain as go back in time. Or jump around, like we've seen...
Time is regarded as a monotonically increasing variable, that is, we can just go forward. In some special conditions (e.g.: traveling faster than light), this "rule" can be broken and turning a frozen donkey wheel (kisses to e.) will not break this rule! Unless going back in time is explained by Mythology. If so, time-loops can go along...
For me, as soon as someone accepts time-traveling BACK (and forward), it's just a matter of will to believe in time-loops. I don't really care, because the "enjoy the show" should be above all of this. What if Vozz is right? More than understanding the authors, I'd say that his mind is "in phase" with theirs.
Dave said that the show is not about sci-fi. He is right, but sci-fi (time-traveling) and mythology are the background arc. The search for a purpose has been done in different ways in movies and literature without time-traveling and/or mythology, but LOST's framework for that search is "new". That's why bloggers' theories evolve around the mysteries...
By the way, in 1977, USA President was Jimmy Carter.
JC? Jesus Christ? OMG!!! Just kidding. ;)
I love the idea that Hurley is the variable! It makes perfect sense! He was the first actor cast and is said to be one of the most important. I think casting an unknown actor in the role of Hugo and having him always in the background as a supporting character will prove to be a brilliant move by the writers when it is revealed that he is the key to everything. And this works so perfectly with the anomaly of the numbers, which only seem to affect him and are the freak result which puts him in the story.
As for Jacob, I still stand by the belief that he will end up being Jack, trapped in time as a ghost. Jack/Jacob - the names are similar, since the pilot Jack has always been the natural leader of the island like Jacob supposedly is, and the only people we ever see in the cabin are Jack's family members (Christian and Claire). Perhaps Jacks attempt to detonate the bomb will end up trapping him as a ghost on the island aware of the events on the island, but trapped by Richard and Ben to the cabin. Or, what if Locke does end up killing Jacob and suddenly a crazy old grizzled looking Jack is resurrected?!? Very excited for next Wed.!!
The idea of a "sham" Jacob reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode, "The Old Man In The Cave" Also the attitude of Locke , let's go see this Jacob guy. Trying to prove it is a sham or releasing Jacob from his "prison". How about another Twilight Zone "The Howling Man" (A Man) Satan tries to convince a man to release him because he is being held against his will.
In reference to JackLord about Dave:
Some of the things I have been theorizing for several years are now being said by other people. Maybe I'm not ready for Santa Rosa yet. Most Sci-fi has character development as it's main framework. Where would Luke be without his father?
I made a list several months ago of all the main characters that have been on the show and how their lives were being relived to redeem them and then the island would release them to die.
Ok, I have to bite, zorro:
You say you think there are causal loops happening, but a larger time loop has no "evidence" and it is likely impossible - short of the flat "dude, we've been time looping for decades" - to pull off?
Your description of the fact that Hurley is already on the wall in 1977 when he gets on the flight in 2004 pretty much hinges on the fact that time loops are happening. You can't have small causal loops without the notion of larger or multiple loops being possible. Sorry, but the facts don't back you up on that one.
Trust me, as a writer (and if you are a writer, as you say you are, and I believe it) I could come up with a dozen creative ways to explain a time loop in the final season. These writers have been pondering the notion for years now. You don't think they can come up with a better way to show it than "dude, we've been looping for decades"?
Now, I'm not saying I believe completely in the time loop theory, but I will admit it is possible. I still think that your causal loops are paradoxical (look up the definition; things don't need to be broken in a loop for a paradox to exist. we're not in the past here, we're in the present/future. I explained this on the thread for the poll on the ep.) because even if it a causal loop without any connection to larger or multiple loops, there was still a point that John Locke did not need to be advised by Richard to die. Otherwise, John Resurrected would not be able to tell John Unresurrected about it. That's a seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true (aka the definition of a paradox). And if John Unresurrected during the first part of the causal loop does not need the info, then why would JR need to tell him at all? It makes no sense.
Just like the fact that Hurley was already in the photo on the island when he boarded the original flight. That would require a loop.
"accidentally setting something into motion; just as he stepped out onto the balcony and all those people died – it wasn’t his fault, because the balcony was already overloaded, but he tipped the scales, so to speak. He set something into motion."
-Whoa (Keanu reeves style)
Can we not assume that motifs are there to guide us towards understanding the underlying mystery/theme of the show?
"Your description of the fact that Hurley is already on the wall in 1977 when he gets on the flight in 2004 pretty much hinges on the fact that time loops are happening. You can't have small causal loops without the notion of larger or multiple loops being possible."
Wrong.
Time loop: Time runs from, say, 1954 to 2007 - in 2007 time jumps back to begin in 1954 again.
Causal loop: Event A is the cause for event B. Event B is the cause for event A.
Two completely different things.
"I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again."
Uh, no. Yes the island goes back in time, but I haven't seen ANY proof that it loops OVER AND OVER again.
That kind of loop looks like this: 8
Lost's loop is like this if there is one: 6
Traveling in time doesen't imply an infinit loop...
Now I'll keep on reading cause it's still good stuff. Mainly what you said about Locke.
"Richard is the Other's constant. Since he never dies, he's the keeper of all the advanced knowledge - he passes this on to each successive chosen leader. He knows what must be done and guides everyone accordingly. And if I were him, I'd probably be bored out of my skull right about now, too."
Why is he surpised that Faraday dies? Why is he surprised to see time travelers? I think the fifth season showed us that Richard is not all knowing.
I REALLY can't buy that "guardian of the loop" theory. To me, it doesen't hold.
"Traveling in time doesen't imply an infinit loop..."
YES Benjamin Potter! People need to understand that.
It's not that hard, is it?
Ok, maybe they preserve a loop so that an event in the future can be prevented. As long as they don't find how to stop it, they loop back.
But, I think only Jacob knows stuff. He tells Richard what to do. Richard isn't all knowing.
Smokey knows stuff as well. He and Jacob are on opposite sides.
Maybe it's the opposite. Maybe Smokey preserves a loop and Jacob wants to end it.
At this point, I don't know who's good and who's bad...
>>>Your description of the fact that Hurley is already on the wall in 1977 when he gets on the flight in 2004 pretty much hinges on the fact that time loops are happening.<<<
Absolutely wrong. We all know that there's one "loop" from 2004 to 1974, but that doesn't prove in the slightest that the island is continually looping over and over again. That what the time loop theory is.
>>>You can't have small causal loops without the notion of larger or multiple loops being possible. <<<
I NEVER said that multiple loops were impossible. I simply said that there's absolutely nothing in the show that would suggest that multiple loops have happened.
>>>I could come up with a dozen creative ways to explain a time loop in the final season.<<<
Again, we're not talking about "a time loop", we're talking about multiple loops (plural). And there's really no way to explain this in a dramatic way without going back and showing all of the loops. What does the audience care that in loop 713 Jack said, "Such and such" but in loop 714 he said "So and so". All the audience cares about is what has been happening in this particular loop. Previous loops are just an unneeded complication.
>>>I still think that your causal loops are paradoxical<<<
Again, you're absolutely wrong. Causal loops, as long as they are self-consistent (which those in LOST are), are not paradoxical. They are hard to understand, and they're a bit baffling since they seem not to have a beginning or end, but they aren't paradoxical.
Richard seems to be like Eloise in that he only knows what others tell him is the future. Eloise knowledge of what happens on the island probably only extends to the experiences she has with people from the future. Only knowledge of other's knowledge. Maybe how Ben and the others got information about the 815ers so quickly.Maybe Richard's time line is straight but just very very long. Apparently, Richard only knows about Locke being at the plane injured because Locke told him so.
Yeah, you're starting to lose me, Vozz. Still the best recaps, tho. But I disagree about lots at this point. Can't fault you for sticking your neck out, tho. And well-written as always!
The very first scene of the season focused on a broken record player looping the same phrase over and over - give it a chance until after the finale - then we can put it to bed
Time loop theory=fail
Jifftoni, you're missing the part about Event B causing Event A before Event A even happens.
Your definition of a causal loop does not allow for what happens in the episode:
Event A (Locke unressurected goes off island and dies)
causes
Event B (Locke Resurrected comes back)
Event B (LR tells LU he needs to die)
causes
Event A (LU goes off island and dies)
For this scenario to make sense, LU needs to know he has to die before he can come back. But in the first part of the loop, how does he figure that out? Well, as we saw earlier in the season, Richard told Locke he had to die. And now we see Locke Resurrected told Richard to tell LU. The first time Locke enters the causal loop he cannot have been told by Locke Resurrected. It is a paradox.
The only explanations are that Locke Resurrected is not really Locke, he just looks like Locke. OR we did not see the first time Locke entered the causal loop.
By the way, causal loops are just smaller versions of time loops. I wasn't wrong. Because the loop does not end when we see LR tell LU he needs to die, obviously. The loop continues, which is just what a time loop does, only on a larger scale.
"The Variable is Hurley."
Sorry, but that's just bad. I can come up with a list like that for Jack, Locke, Desmond, Sun, Sawyer(especialy him and how many times he tried to leave the island and failed) etc etc.
They are all pretty special and IF there are variables, they all are.
That's as far fetch as the magical wound and Aaron is a puppet.
But I do agree Hurley is freaking important. But so is Locke and Jack and Walt and Aaron and Sawyer.
The other thing you have to realize about the time loop theory is that it was popularized when it seemed that several characters (Ben, Eloise, Richard) had unexplained knowledge about certain people and events.
Since then, though, we've gotten explanations for that. Ben knew so much because he had Mikhail digging up all the information he could about them. Ben also had knowledge about people and events from the things he experienced in the 70s. Eloise knew so much because she had Daniel's journal explaining things to her. Richard, as we've been seeing this season, doesn't actually know as much as we thought. Locke has been feeding him information for decades.
I think that these things basically negate some of the original impetus for the time loop theory.
>>>Again, we're not talking about "a time loop", we're talking about multiple loops (plural). And there's really no way to explain this in a dramatic way without going back and showing all of the loops. What does the audience care that in loop 713 Jack said, "Such and such" but in loop 714 he said "So and so". All the audience cares about is what has been happening in this particular loop. Previous loops are just an unneeded complication.
You're not giving them enough credit and you're not giving credit to viewers. I could easily cover all the loops. Look at how they covered getting back to the island via Ajira. Hawking took care of that in one fell swoop. I'm not saying it was the best way to do it, but you can easily overcome that obstacle. It might be unnecessary complication, but time travel itself is unnecessary complication for the infinite avenues they could have selected.
>>>Again, you're absolutely wrong. Causal loops, as long as they are self-consistent (which those in LOST are), are not paradoxical. They are hard to understand, and they're a bit baffling since they seem not to have a beginning or end, but they aren't paradoxical.
Again, you are absolutely incorrect.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language:
paradox
1. A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
2. One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: "The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears" (Mary Shelley).
3. An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
4. A statement contrary to received opinion.
Now, the "facts" in this situation come from the show, so no matter what I think of the subject, when it comes to Lost, those are the facts. So the definition of a paradox does indeed hold here.
I will love to see how this definition of paradox, which is a fact, will be refuted (cue the "scientific" definition of paradox, which will somehow be different form this definition).
>>>Since then, though, we've gotten explanations for that. Ben knew so much because he had Mikhail digging up all the information he could about them. Ben also had knowledge about people and events from the things he experienced in the 70s. Eloise knew so much because she had Daniel's journal explaining things to her. Richard, as we've been seeing this season, doesn't actually know as much as we thought. Locke has been feeding him information for decades.
Ben makes sense, yes. But that does not explain why Locke did not know things during the previous seasons. Obviously if he had gone through the decades feeding Richard info, then he would have known the info himself in S1, S2, etc, but he didn't.
"We saw a ring of ash around Jacob's cabin, which originally seemed like it might've been there to protect it from being discovered or seen. Later on though, it became more and more obvious that the ring of ash was probably there for the opposite reason: to keep Jacob IN. We also saw a very worried look on Ben's face when he saw that the circle had been broken, almost as if he were worried that something had escaped. Incidentally, this is also when we started seeing quasi-evil Christian and Claire."
Great stuff! That is a great observation!
blandestk, I fail to see how the definition of "paradox" you quoted applies to the situation under discussion. Each of the definitions revolves around the idea of one thing contradicting another. Yet, in the causal loop we're talking about nothing is contradictory. Event A causes event B, event B causes event A. There's no contradiction. It would be a contradiction, a paradox only if Event A caused event B, but then event B was prevented before it could cause event A. That would be a paradox because the loop of cause and effect would be broken. But as long as the loop completes itself, there's no contradiction, and thus no paradox. I'm sorry you don't understand this concept, but I'm not sure how to make it clearer for you.
" We also saw a very worried look on Ben's face when he saw that the circle had been broken, almost as if he were worried that something had escaped."
When was that? Im not disputing that it happened I just cant recall that scene
Zorro, you are the one misunderstanding the concept. Look at the definition. A paradox is a scenario the exhibits seemingly contradictory aspects. How is the fact that Locke Resurrected tells Locke Unresurrected what to do, when for LR to be LR in the first place, he needs LU to know what to do before he gets there, not seemingly contradictory? What exactly don't you understand about this notion? It's not very hard to grasp.
Something not happening in a causal loop IS NOT what causes a paradox.
How much clearer can I be on this? The notion is seemingly contradictory, but since the writers tell us it happened, it is still true. See definition 1.
>>> I think most of us can agree by now that the release of the island's inner energy causes time to fold back on itself, looping over and over again.<<<<
No loops! Vozz please don't use language like that in your recaps it's actually quite insulting. Seriously that is your opinion and just saying 'I think we can all agree' is really out of order. No we don't, please don't just disregard everyone else's opinions like that. There really isn't any evidence of a loop as far as I can see. Why doesn't everyone remember doing it before? The 815ers don't. Richard doesn't understand whats going on almost the whole time. So where is this loop? No one knows the future because it's their second, third, millionth time through. Some people know a bit about the future because of what they learned from the Freighties and 815ers going back through time. I see no evidence of a loop at all. It is your theory don't insult the rest of us by pretending it's fact.
Loved the recap and thoughts, Voz. Hurley should certainly be a variable (though I doubt the only one). I remember when he told Jack he chose wrong and would choose Jack next time. That he has a choice, and announced it to Jack, seems meaningful indeed.
Esp now that Jack's going to need some people on his side.
Timeloops: Eloise said she had tried several times over to save the man in the red shoes, but he died each time, albeit in different ways and days each time. I have questions about that (like, was Desmond there each time, trying to buy a ring for Penny? Did he succeed some of those times, and that's how she "knows" he's not destined to marry Penny?). But in any event, Eloise does seem to have lived through some time loops. Canonical enough for me.
I just don't think the time loops are the exact same each time. I doubt there are huge differences (especially with 'Course Correction' in the picture), but Eloise herself said some details can be different (like with the red shoed guy).
>>>How is the fact that Locke Resurrected tells Locke Unresurrected what to do, when for LR to be LR in the first place, he needs LU to know what to do before he gets there, not seemingly contradictory?<<<
Huh? These things aren't contradictory at all because of the time travel involved. In 2007, Locke2 knows what needs to happen because he has already experienced it. He then sends Richard to tell Locke1 what to do. Locke1 then flashes back in time and does what he's been told. There's no contradiction whatsoever. There's nothing that even seems contradictory. It's all pretty straight forward.
The only way it would be a contradiction would be if Locke hadn't been resurrected and wasn't able to give himself the knowledge of what to do. That would be a paradox. But Locke was resurrected and was able to complete the causal loop, and thus there is no paradox.
Those casual loops aren't anything at all really. 1.) For awhile Ricard is holding two compasses. 2.) Locke doesn't tell Richard to tell him to die because Richard told him to. He tells him to do it because he did it and it worked. (Confusing I know) Either way it's not really that important but these things can be explained without having to cause themselves.
@Locke081 She didn't say she did try and save him, she said that IF she tried it wouldn't work. She knows this (I assume) because shes trying to save her son in the finale and it doesn't work (again I assume) so she lives her life knowing no matter how hard she tries whatever happened happened. >tear<
@ blandeskt
"Your definition of a causal loop does not allow for what happens in the episode"
You are wrong. It's not an infinit or multiple loop.
Richard tells Locke that he needs to die/Locke disapears/Locke dies and brings the O6 back/Locke comes back to the island and to life/Locke tells Richard what to tell Time skipping Locke/Richard tells TS Locke what to do and TS Locke disapears(loop)/Reborn Locke is still there, so it worked/They go on to live their lives and this never happens again.
It's not an "8" loop, but a "6" loop.
I don't see what's hard to understand.
>>>Eloise said she had tried several times over to save the man in the red shoes, but he died each time, albeit in different ways and days each time.<<<
No, she said that IF she had tried to save him, that he still would have died.
"Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die."
She never actually tried to save him in previous loops. There were no previous loops.
@blandeskt
So basically you're saying that a time loop is necessary for a causal loop to work, and that without a TL the CL would be a paradox? (I hope I got that right)
But what about the very first iteration of a TL then? The CL could only work from iteration 2 on, but it has to be in iteration 1, too. Now that's a paradox ;)
Zorro, you're obviously just being difficult. A paradox DOES NOT NEED TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE LOOP TO BE A PARADOX. Not sure how else to spell this out.
It is contradictory because 2004/2005 Locke had not experienced death yet, so his future version could not know to tell him that info. You cannot go back in time to tell yourself something that you did not know in the past expressly so you could end up how you already are in the future. That, my friend, is a paradox.
Benjamin, in your example, how does Richard - at the start of 6 loop you describe - know to tell Locke he needs to die? That's how it can't work. Because end of the loop Locke told Richard that info.
Jiff, what I was saying is that the causal loop is just a mini version of a time loop. Note this is completely different from me espousing the time loop theory. I'm just saying that certain people have said they see evidence for causal loops, but not time loops. Well, they're really just the same thing, just on different levels. Perhaps we haven't seen "evidence" of the time-loop theory yet. We wouldn't have to see it for it to be true, there's a whole season left.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the time loop or the causal loop business at all. I think it's sloppy and inferior storytelling. I think the paradox you describe, Jiff, is exactly what is going on in the story. I'm not a fan.
^Seeing two Lockes at once is what needs to considered in this discussion
blandestk I can't follow what you're trying to say here. In 2007 Locke knows he has to die because he's done so. He tells Richard to tell 2004 Locke that. He does. I don't see where the Paradox or loop occurs. Locke knows this in 2007 not just because Richard told him that but because he actually did it, so there is no loop or paradox. Just a lot of timey wimey stuff. All of things had to occur only one time but they do not cause these other in a direct way so it's no big deal.
>>>It is contradictory because 2004/2005 Locke had not experienced death yet, so his future version could not know to tell him that info.<<<
Of course his future version knew to tell him that info! He was from the future! People from the future have more information than those from the past. Why are you assuming that Locke1 and Locke2 have to have the same information at the same time. Why can't Locke2 tell Locke1 something?
>>>You cannot go back in time to tell yourself something that you did not know in the past expressly so you could end up how you already are in the future.<<<
Huh? OK, let's say that in 2012 you run into the street and push a kid out of the way of a bus. You are then hit by the bus and seriously injured. You then recover. After recovering, your 2009 self mysteriously flashes into 2012. You then tell him that he going to have to get seriously injured in order to save a kid. Your 2009 self then flashes back to 2009.
There's absolutely nothing contradictory about that at all.
First off, I agree with TheGimper. Zorro's posts, while having some insight, come across as egotistical... a "my way or the highway" slant. Zorro, since I presume you are not a writer on the show, you don't KNOW anything. Your ideas are theories just like everyone else's... yet you present your arguments like you are some kind of all knowing Karnak. Lighten up and brush the chip off your shoulder.
As far as the original recap. Very detailed and I like the Hurley theory a lot.
I also think, like Vozzek, that Richard is ridiculously old.
A couple things that have been on my mind:
- Whether Jacob is real or not, I don't know... but it seems like Locke might have been using the "kill" term loosely. In other words, if he's real, he'll kill him. If he's not real, then he's going to kill the belief that the generic/serf/peon/low-level Others have in him (i.e. wake them up to the sham of this false prophet).
- The really old hieroglyphs in the tunnels under the temple, the 4-toed statue, and the appearance/disappearance of the island itself from the reality of a given timeline makes me think of the legend of Atlantis quite a bit.
- The everlasting Richard and the possibility of time loops makes me think of the fountain of youth also.
- So far everyone has been careful not to reveal their alternate time existence to the other versions of themselves (e.g. Locke version 2.0 staying in the trees instead of directly helping Locke version 1.0 in yesterday's episode). Wonder if that cardinal sin of time travel will get broken at some point and someone will, in fact, see themselves.
- Seems like a huge conundrum regarding the Faraday/Jack plan of blowing the island to bits to stop the entire chain of events from happening in the first place. Seems like a stretch that this would actually be written in the script... But from any person's version 2.0 that is one hell of a sacrifice. Faraday said to Jack in the previous episode that any of them can get killed, that this time in '77 is their now. So basically you (as Jack/Kate/etc) have to commit suicide as 2.0 to allow your previous 1.0 incarnation to go on... yet your conscious is in 2.0, not 1.0... so you are destroying yourself to let another version of you have a better life. That's some crazy sh--. I love it.
First time poster....
Has anyone considered that Jack blowing up the hydrogen bomb is whats SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. Him blowing it up at/near the swan station is what CAUSES the massive leak of energy at the swan station, and in turn causes the button to have to be pushed....furthering the fact that "what ever happened, happened"?
Just curious....???
>>>Zorro's posts, while having some insight, come across as egotistical... a "my way or the highway" slant...yet you present your arguments like you are some kind of all knowing Karnak. Lighten up and brush the chip off your shoulder.<<<
Hmm, I seem to remember that Dark said no more personal comments. Hope you don't get banned, buddy.
>>>Has anyone considered that Jack blowing up the hydrogen bomb is whats SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. Him blowing it up at/near the swan station is what CAUSES the massive leak of energy at the swan station, and in turn causes the button to have to be pushed....furthering the fact that "what ever happened, happened"?<<<
Yes, that's exactly what I've been saying since last week.
"For the record, I'm not a fan of the time loop or the causal loop business at all."
That's good to hear, me neither :)
I don't quite think that it's bad storytelling, but I do think that causal loops carry the danger of making the whole storyline pointless. Locke is the chosen one, because...he chose himself?! uhhhm yeah great ;)
But I was thrilled to see that after his resurrection he really knows what's going on and that it wasn't all just a self fulfilling prophecy.
Zorro...
If I get banned, I get banned... up until now though you are the only one in this thread who has been warned, multiple times at that. All I'm saying is to lighten up, man. The number of absolute terms you include in your posts makes them seem quite condescending to me... and apparently to at least a few other people too. You have some good points... just maybe cut out a few "always", "never"s, and the like. With this show it's all shades of gray to me.
Viva Lost!
>>>Huh? OK, let's say that in 2012 you run into the street and push a kid out of the way of a bus. You are then hit by the bus and seriously injured. You then recover. After recovering, your 2009 self mysteriously flashes into 2012. You then tell him that he going to have to get seriously injured in order to save a kid. Your 2009 self then flashes back to 2009.
There's absolutely nothing contradictory about that at all.
Completely different situation. In the situation you cite, the past self might actually decide not to get hit by the bus. Further, your past self did not NEED that info to make the decision.
Locke's past self did need that info in order to make the decision to die. Otherwise, he wouldn't have made the decision. Of course, I don't know this for a fact, but based on Locke's reaction to the idea, I assume he needed to know the info or he wouldn't have known he needed to die. Locke's future self had to die and had to know he had to die in order to be able to tell his past self he needed to die. But he can't give that info unless past Locke gets the info and dies, so past Locke has to die before future Locke can go back and give the info. Again, there's the paradox.
wow Vozzek, excellent review! Thinks this is your best of the season!
I like the Hurley idea. The only thing I wonder about is why the numbers 'reached' Hurley. Because he met leonard, then used the numbers in the lotery and then the chain of events started that eventually got him on flight 815. The lady telling him "he is not supposed to be on the flight" I forgot completely so thanks for that, I will watch that episode again! I believe it's the season one episode "numbers" right?
I don't know if anyone else felt the same but when you described Hurley and his role I somehow got a strange connection with the whole beatle myth about paul mcartney's death. It is completely stupid I know, but somehow it popped in my head.
And here I am, commenting this weeks episode review... I promised myself not to watch this weeks episode and give myself a 3 hour season finale. Well, that worked out great!
Vozzek, I enjoy your recaps immensely, thank you for the time and energy you put into them. We had a very similar idea surface in our discussion forum this last week, but it was Jack who was the Variable, for much the same reasons. I've always believed that Hurley would play a pivotal role, simply because he is a good, honest person. Not much redemption needed for Hugo.
One thing, we don't know that Eloise is pregnant with Daniel. It could be someone else. If it was Daniel, it would mean that he would have graduated between the ages of 15 and 17. Yes, he's a prodigy, but even with the mutant mullet he's sporting on Graduation Day, he's no 17 year old.
I'm a long time supporter of Kate. I pretty much disagree with everything you say about her. I've realized there is no way for me to change anyone's mind about Kate. Her character pushes far too many buttons for far too many people. Frankly, I've been shocked when I watch how she is spoken of in most forums and in chat each Wednesday night. I can't let you get away with the "Kate got another person killed" statement, Vozzek. Or hang Jack's vicodin addiction on her. Kate was there because someone had to take Faraday to find Eloise. She chose to leave once it became clear that Jack was serious about blowing up the Island. And, nobody made Jack pop the vicodin, he did that all by himself. I wish you could look at Kate with the clarity you see most of the other characters. Kate's character is heartbreaking. But most people cannot see through the veil of her beauty and her gender.
While Dave's post was beautifully written and articulated I have to disagree with him on some points. I don't know for sure that Locke is really Locke anymore. I think that he may be mostly Smokey reanimation now. How much of the old Locke is left? I don't know. But, on the premise that it is the old Locke? I'm afraid if it is the old Locke, he is being set up yet again.
Locke has tried his whole life to be something he is not. We see that as a child with his interaction with Richard. Although he knows that the book is his he is chooses the knife. Why wouldn't he be? This kid lives in an awfully powerless situation and he knows there is nobody looking out for him and a knife is a symbol of great power. In high school he desperately wants to fit in. His arguement with his science teacher about the science camp is so poignant. "I like sports, I like cars." What is not said is, "Why don't I fit in? Why don't people accept me?" When he says, "Don't tell me what I can't do," isn't he, perhaps, saying "Don't tell me that I'm going to feel this way the rest of my life-different, strange, unaccepted, ALONE!" This happens over and over for Locke. He mistakes his pot growing friends for people who care-he misreads the situation again. Sadly, he rejects someone who does love him, who accepts him. He sacrifices Helen because he can't believe she loves him. He turns back to the pattern and his father sows the final seeds that prepare him perfectly for the Island. The Island gives back what his father stole. He looks into the 'eye' of the Island and it is beautiful. Mr. Eko told him what would happen, and Mr. Eko saw the Island for what it truly was. As I said, I believe that John is, once more, going to have the rug pulled out from beneath him. His despair in the hotel room prior to his 'death' will be nothing compared to how he will feel once he realizes that the Island has used him as well. I think we will see that scenario once again, but once John's grandiosity is revealed this time, it will not just be costing him his life, but perhaps many more people. I hope that if that is the case that John will redeem himself with a truly selfless act.
On the spoiler topic What lies in the shadow of the statue someone made a comparision to the sphinx. This reminded me of an interesting interpretation of the story of Oedipus. In some ways the curse which the sphinx brought upon Thebes was punishment for Oedipus's future murder of his father and marriage to his mother. In this case the sphinx not only has foresight but also brings about the fate for which the city is condemned. This could provide a lot of insight on lost's plot.
"Grushka said...
Didn't notice Widmore place his hand on Ellie's stomach 8/ That's why I read your Things :)
Nice recap!"
Not only that he placed his hand on her belly, but he also said something like "...in your condition...", so she is definitely pegnant.
I agree, nice recap, as always.
I'm liking the Hurley theory! Great job!
I like the Hurley theory.
Coudl Jacob be like Jesus? I guess in a way that he has to be killed to be resurrected?
love you vozzek!! always great thoughts!
hugs from a brazilian lost fan
It is contradictory because 2004/2005 Locke had not experienced death yet, so his future version could not know to tell him that info. You cannot go back in time to tell yourself something that you did not know in the past expressly so you could end up how you already are in the future. That, my friend, is a paradox.
blandestk - Don't bother, bro. I've been trying to explain this to him for a month now, but he just doesn't get it. He'll never get it, he'll only say "but that's because it already happened!" (which makes no sense) and you'll only end up beating your head into a wall trying to convince him.
You put it as simply and easily as it possibly could be put, and he still refuses to acknowledge it. Better to move onto other points in the show, like the one Locke081 bring up:
Loved the recap and thoughts, Voz. Hurley should certainly be a variable (though I doubt the only one). I remember when he told Jack he chose wrong and would choose Jack next time. That he has a choice, and announced it to Jack, seems meaningful indeed.
NICE. If what you're saying is true then maybe Hurley helps Jack out next week by choosing his side? But then again, on Desmond's boat, didn't Hurley want to argue in favor of telling the truth... and when Jack wanted to lie, Hurley said: "One day you'll need me and I won't help you. I won't be there." or something like that? Or was he saying it to Sayid? Can't remember. Anyone else remember?
People are being picky! :-D
Vozzek69 has a theory about Hugo being THE variable and those who think he is NOT, jump on like rabid dogs to pick Jack, Desmond, Locke, Sawyer, you name it... to end up saying something like "Yeah, but Hugo is important"... Of course Hugo is! The core characters (those we have since S1) are ALL important. Sun is back for a reason and I bet it's other then a sentimental scene with Jin.
Like I've been saying here, we recognize facts we are predisposed to recognize. Daniel say "we all are variables", but still people think there is just one variable. Fair enough, because Daniel can be wrong. Direct statements from characters are not NECESSARILY messages or facts, it can be what the character thinks at that point. But Daniel could be transmitting a message... who knows?
Time-loop vs no time-loop is getting old! :-p
You guys are using the same arguments when you defend or attack this theory and that is insane. Explain time-loops with an 8 and a 6 doesn't hold a lot of water, because when you draw a 6, it can be regarded as a time-loop, since the loop happens when you go around a circle and 6 has a circle... Like I've been defending, it's more a matter of belief on time-loops or not.
You guys should read yourselves, you deny/defend time-loops, discuss paradox, etc. At the same time, for you, it looks normal for people to be traveling back and forward in time. If time traveling was possible in the first place, a lot of problems, other than time-loops, would arise. For example, two (or multiple) version meeting each other! The authors are avoiding them to meet, aren't they? Why?
Just a question...It seems that when Jack and Richard and Eloise entered the tunnels they entered at the same place that smokey resides 30 years later. Does anyone...especially Voz have an idea on that? I could also just be seeing things and the long hours at work with only Lost as a break could be playing mind tricks on me.
scottb: @Locke081 She didn't say she did try and save him, she said that IF she tried it wouldn't work.
Sorry, but the women KNEW the man in the red shoes was going to die. She pointed him out to Desmond before it happened. It's a loop.
I always enjoy reading your take on the episodes whether I believe all of your theories or not. Keep up the great work. I think since this is a fictional television show that nobody has all the answers(except maybe TPTB)and that NOBODY knows for sure what the 'rules' are. You really cannot even go by the ambiguous info that TPTB give us as we have seen that 'what's really going on" has changed over time.
NOT a professional writer since 1973
Vozz - Some great theories, as usual. Is zorro an ex-girlfriend or something? Why does she dislike you so much?
Zorro - I find it odd that as a "professional" writer you would have such a hard time grasping what "theory" means. Your "condescending pomposity and general assiness" make your posts seem jaded and hard to take seriously. Do you have a blog or some theories of your own posted on this site, that I(we) might be able to read?
This is the most comprehensive, lucid and, most of all, logically accurate analysis of an episode I've ever read. Cheers.
Your time loop theory is in dire need of some serious thought. We all want to nail what Lost is all about, but you're going to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you keep on this blind-sighted track.
My own personal view is that Daniel made the mistake of thinking that everyone is a 'variable' when it really is only Desmond, because of what he did at the Swan with the fail-safe.
Zorro seems to be the only one making any sense around here.
Just a friendly reminder:
the⋅o⋅ry
1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
i think your wrong about the jacob part and i think richard and ben are planning to stop locke from killing jacob.
There are many good ideas thrown around here, but you guys need to learn to express yourselves less antagonistically.
That being said, I do feel the need to address the time loop theory.
A proper time loop would be like the movie Groundhog's Day. Bill Murray wakes up again and again on the same day, to relive it with variations, until he "gets it right." Nothing like this has (yet) happened on LOST.
Vozzek himself states the Others were trying to maintain a loop, but he's confusing their knowledge of events that actually happened to them - in their past - with some grander knowledge of past-present-future.
Just to go by what we've seen on the show....
Eloise knows so much because she met Daniel in '77 and acquired his journal. She herself states "for the first time in a long time I don't know what happens next." Does this sound like the statement of a person in a time loop? She no longer knows what's going to happen because she reached the end of the knowledge imparted to her by Daniel's journal. She reached that end when she convinced the 815'ers to become 316'ers.
Richard, because of his stature in the Others and his agelessness, would seem to be the character most likely to have a fix on any time loop goings-on, but on the show he actually seems to know very little. Much of his knowledge about the future has been clearly shown to have been a result of contact with the time-skipping Locke. Aside from that, and again - at least as demonstrated on the show - he's rather clueless. Not the behavior of a man in a time loop.
Widmore's knowledge is essentially the same as Richard and Ellie's, and once again mostly derives from meeting the time-skipping Losties. In the shows's present (2007-ish) he doesn't demonstrate any knowledge outside of those confines.
So, Vozzek, while I appreciate your theory as a theory, it doesn't have much weight behind it from actual events on the show.
And to say that "most of us believe in time loops" is kind of amusing, since the last poll I saw showed 65% of people firmly in the Whatever Happened, Happened camp.
>>>Locke's future self had to die and had to know he had to die in order to be able to tell his past self he needed to die. But he can't give that info unless past Locke gets the info and dies, so past Locke has to die before future Locke can go back and give the info. Again, there's the paradox.<<<
Ahh, now I see where your confusion comes from. You're looking at time in too linear a fashion. Do what Einstein always used to do--do a "thought experiment". Imagine stepping outside of the timeline. You're floating in a timeless void, looking at the entire timeline in front of you. There's no before or after, no past or future. Everything is occurring at the same time. Effects and causes happen at the same time. Then look at John Locke's situation. Once you free yourself of the narrowness of the binds of time, you can see the entire situation play out without paradox or contradiction. You only see an apparent contradiction because your perspective is bound by time. When it comes to time travel, you have to be able to step out of that mindset to see what's really going on. Just take a little bit of time doing that thought experiment and thinking deeply about it. I think you'll see how a causal loop isn't a paradox.
>>>I find it odd that as a "professional" writer you would have such a hard time grasping what "theory" means. <<<
Wow, are you serious? I've been the one talking about how the time loop theory is just that, a theory. Vozz is the one who doesn't understand what a theory is and said, "We all know time loop is true, so..." My original point is that it is merely a theory, not something we know for sure and can use as proof for other assumptions. Go back and read how this all started. I think you'll see that your comment was directed at the wrong person.
>>>Your "condescending pomposity and general assiness" make your posts seem jaded and hard to take seriously. <<<
Lighten up, dude. We're all just discussing the show in a straightforward way. There's nothing personal about it (at least not from me, although people like you don't mind getting personal with me). What's the point of a discussion if you can't just say what you mean, without having to filter it through the BS machine? If I believe one thing, you'd better believe I'm going to say it in the strongest terms possible. If you believe another thing, you'd better say it in the strongest terms possible. There's no use being weak or wishy-washy when making a point, is there?
>>>Do you have a blog or some theories of your own posted on this site, that I(we) might be able to read?<<<
I've stated a bunch of theories on this site, in the various discussion threads. Feel free to go back and read them and tear them to shreds if you want. But if you're going to tear them to shreds, use evidence from the show. That's what people don't seem to understand. Theories should be rooted in evidence from the show. If your theory isn't backed up by anything in the show (or is directly contradicted by facts from the show), then its a crappy theory, despite how fervently you believe in it. And we shouldn't be afraid to say that some theories are crappy.
Actually, I said "most of us can agree", not "we all know". Again, misquoting me.
If Andy would indulge us, I'd be very interested in seeing the following poll:
The release of island's inner energy causes time to fold back upon itself, looping over and over again. YES or NO.
If more than 50% of people say yes, cool. If not, I rescind my *assumption* that most people think this way, which would make me wrong.
Either way, it's still what I personally think is happening.
Oh and Zorro, I only wanna see you voting from ONE of your screennames. ;)
>>>Oh and Zorro, I only wanna see you voting from ONE of your screennames.<<<
That's completely uncalled for, and it's not the first time you've said it. I only have one screenname, and you know it. Dark can back me up on that. I don't think it's very professional for this site to sponsor commentators who repeatedly make false charges against members of the site.
Vozz, do you really find it so hard to believe that people might actually agree with me that you have no choice but to assume that I must be posting under multiple screennames? People agree with me because I back up what I say from the show, which is more than I can say for you. Perhaps you're the one using multiple screennames to support your points.
Just my thoughts:
Whatever happened happened. Exactly once. For us the viewers, everything we see in lost is the past. Nothing is going to change, but there is a lot of stuff we haven't seen yet. Every time we see someone from the future interact with someone in the past, we see that this event was in fact needed to make the story exactly how we already have seen it. (like when Sayid tries to change things and shoot Ben, which makes Ben one of the others, as we already knew. And when Sayid is interrogating Ben after capture (S2?), Ben surely remembers the face of the man who nearly killed him in his youth.
As for Locke, dead is dead, and there is no such thing as ressurection. He know he is supposed to be dead because somewhere between after he turns the wheel and before Ben kills him, he has travelled to the future (and possibly the past) to learn that Ben killed him - and this way he also gained a lot of knowledge. After this he travels back to the Island where we see him now. In future episodes we will se him fullfill his destiny by travelling in time and kill himself(get killed by ben). Because he has seen the result of everything when he was in the future, he understand that this is the only/best outcome and accepts to sacrifice himself to ensure that the past will happen just the way it did.
As for future-self sharing knowledge with past-self , directly or indirectly - there is a simple way to make what ever happened happen still and not change a thing: Memory loss. (maybe like daniel?).
To use fiction to explain fiction is a looong shot:
<< A proper time loop would be like the movie Groundhog's Day. Bill Murray wakes up again and again on the same day, to relive it with variations, until he "gets it right." Nothing like this has (yet) happened on LOST. >>
Proper way? No way!
Bill Murray can remember his mistakes and fix them, which is a debatable time-loop theory. If Bill Murray goes back in time, what happens with other versions of Bill Murray? In this movie, we don't even know how he is time-looping. An early cut of the film included a voodoo spell to explain it. 'Nuff said.
About the zorro vs Vozzek69 debate:
Another time, I'd have to say, "evidences of the show depend on the eye of the beholder". First, the authors raised questions and now they are giving blurry answers, so that we have some satisfaction, but, deeply, the answers are yet to be set in stone.
Brenden: Eloise knows so much because she met Daniel in '77 and acquired his journal. She herself states "for the first time in a long time I don't know what happens next."
Again, how would Eloise know about the random guy in the red shoes dying?
She pointed him out before he died.
That wasn't in any journal. Either she has future flashes like Desmond had after the fail-safe, and lied about it to convince Desmond she was a prophet, or she's lived the time loop more than once and knows from experience that the man in the red shoes dies.
(Okay, maybe she hired a hit on the man in the red shoes. But even if that's the case, how did she know Desmond would appear on that day, at that hour, in order to set up the man's death to impress Desmond? Would Desmond's appearance be in the journal?)
I agree. Hurley's character was the first cast for the show.
Bram does look a little like Hurley don't you think?
Well, the Groundhog Day reference was meant to be a convenient illustration, because it undoubtedly is a time loop story. I didn't intend it to "explain" anything, just use it as an example of a time loop. But while we're on the "fiction" kick, let's remember that LOST is a TV show, and not a graduate seminar on theoretical physics.
I agree that Eloise and the red-shoed man is an anomaly, but it doesn't really prove anything. For my part, I suspect we'll never get a resolution to it, but only time will tell.
Also, remember, Desmond and Faraday had some significant interactions, even if many of them were only when Desmond's mind was skipping through time. But it could be reasoned that Faraday wrote a lot about Desmond in his journal. Maybe Faraday was shadowing Desmond when the red-shoed man was killed, wrote it in his journal, and Eloise read it. Just a thought, but it seems possible to me.
Excellent review....thank you!
WhenSawyerTellsKate – “Can we not assume that motifs are there to guide us towards understanding the underlying mystery/theme of the show?”
That’s my thought re the motifs as well. I appreciate Zorro bringing up motifs earlier – they are definitely rampant in the show. But, I still maintain that in addition to the motifs, there are repetitions (maybe that’s not the best word to describe what I’m talking about).
I’ve got to put some more thought and homework into it but as for motifs, I would say: black/white, eyes, games, the dharma symbol seen in the background of flashbacks, the numbers – all motifs. Repetitions on the other hand (or maybe “similarities” is better word) are things like Claire’s boyfriend’s paintings being so similar to the mural in the Swan Hatch, as are some of the paintings we’ve seen in the background at Santa Rosa. Things like multiple car crashes. Things like Ben and Locke both being born early, both of their mothers being named Emily. It’s as if certain people have to experience certain things in order for some sort of island “prophecy” (or time loop fulfillment) to come about.
Darrin4mayoer – “Just a question...It seems that when Jack and Richard and Eloise entered the tunnels they entered at the same place that smokey resides 30 years later. Does anyone...especially Voz have an idea on that?”
I’ve thought for a long time that the Smokie we know has always been on the island but not always in its current form. I’ve wondered if its current form is a result of something Dharma did. Now I’m wondering if the H-bomb being in the tunnels (where current Smokie seems to reside and travel) has anything to do w/ its current form (not to mention the release of the electromagnetic source). I think also possible current Smokie is result of the "the incident."
Also, we have yet to see “Smokie” in 1977 – right? Nor, been referred to. I know the sonic fence is around dharmaville but was that to keep out Smokie (which in 2004 it seemed to do) or built to keep out the Hostiles (which it doesn’t do)??
I'm really surprised that a lot of people actually seem to NOT believe in a time loop.
It seems to me that the majority of theories touch on this issue like it's the most known fact...
" *insert theory here* ...oh and btw, this could explain the time loop... *continue theory here* "
No one mentioned it and/or the theories got high ratings, so I received the impression that it was widely accepted.
Jifftoni - I think its hard to tell how many people believe in what because there's a select few commenters on either side of the issue who really really feel passionately about it, and they tend to dominate conversation. Vozzek is also a very well-known recapper, and his theories pick up a lot of steam.
I for one don't subscribe to time loop theory based on my interpretations of what we've seen on the show, but I think it's a cool idea.
What is jacob is the personification of Set? this fits in with the theory of him being one bad dude as well as the egyptian theme.
I realize I'm probably just adding fuel to a fire, here, but I don't think zorro has other screen names - none of the people who agree with him write anything like him - and for the record, I agree with him completely in his ideas about the show and his refutations of these recaps.
However, I do feel like he has contributed to what is becoming a very distasteful little war in these comments threads. Vozzek and zorro both - I think you could stand to take a step back, take a deep breath, whatever, and come back with a little more politeness and dignity. Call it "filtering through the BS machine" if you must, but you've both reached a point where arrogance and condescension is making it hard to enjoy these conversations. On the one side, Vozzek is starting to come off like a cult leader. I know your recaps and theories are popular, and you have lots of head-nodding time loopists here backing you up, but you could stand to think more clearly about zorro's point that very little of this is reflected in the show in any obvious way. If the writers are actually sending us signals about time loops, these signals are VERY subtle (and most of them look a lot like typical production/continuity errors, for some strange reason...). And on the other side, zorro lately reminds me of Richard Dawkins - a scientist/realist type who I agree with completely, and yet it's hard to push aside the blanket of smugness. I have nothing but sympathy for your POV, zorro, but you have to realize that viewers like Vozzek are enjoying the show mainly because of the crazy possibilities. That's a legitimate way to watch "Lost," even if ultimately the theories turn out to be wrong. I think years from now you'll probably STILL see people talking about time loops and whatnot, even if they are never mentioned canonically in the show - and that's fine. It adds weird layers to the show in a way that you and I don't need, but maybe other people like.
I think SpecialAgentDaleCooper has the best screen name ever.
And, that was a great post
:)
How about this for an analogy?
This forum = Lost
Vozzek = Lock (i.e. man of faith)
zorro = Jack (i.e. man or reason, black and white)
many other posters = losties following one camp or the other
I'm an interested viewer of both the show and this forum, along for the ride and loving both!
"That’s my thought re the motifs as well - they are definitely rampant in the show"
#1 - thanks for reading my comment
--the very first scene this season focused on a broken record - fairly understandable that someone would regard this as hinting at some sort of loop happening - not saying that it is correct, but dont fault their interpretation
As for the continuing loop/paradox debate - Last episode we see two Lockes at once - therefore Episode 15 Locke can/does exist simultaneously to Episode 1 Locke. Other example would be the Aaron birth scene back in ep 4(?) - either you believe future Sawyer was always there or not
Good points SpecialAgent
(My screen name award most def goes to "JacobsPotGuy" from the chat this week. Hilarious xD)
"This forum = Lost
Vozzek = Lock (i.e. man of faith)
zorro = Jack (i.e. man or reason, black and white)"
Thats a good analogy
"very distasteful little war in these comments threads"
-is this the war that Charles hinted at? Is the wrong side still going to win?
I actually love the idea of Hurley being the true "variable" in the game.
Don't forget when we first hear "everything can be changed", it is a Hurley-centric episode "Everybody hates Hugo" in season 2. I always think Hurley is a very important character. As he now makes his own luck, maybe his new "Empire Strikes Back" script would really save the world. =]
Blandestk, if Locke dying to return to the island was a paradox, why would he need to contemplate suicide? If it were truly a paradox and he had full knowledge of how he would die and his resulting return to the island, why wouldn't he just buy the cord, go to the hotel room, and wait for Ben to show up and strangle him?
I was looking at it as a desperation move by Locke. He thinks he has failed in convincing the O6 to return and has no other purpose in life. He decides to kill himself on the small chance it may indeed set other events in motion that result in the O6 returning, but if it doesn't work he doesn't really want to go on living anyway.
When Richard tells Locke he will have to die to bring the others back, there is no promise or even discussion about it resulting in Locke's resurrection. That would indeed create a paradox. Have I got this wrong?
Vozz you are being insulting by disregarding everyone else's opinion when it comes to Time Loops. You're basically dismissing us as being stupid. Time loop is not something that can be regarded as fact on the show. There is little, if any evidence to support it. So again please don't be so dismissive of the other point of view. I have no problem with you discussing the theory but please stop talking about it as if it's fact. It isn't.
No one other than Desmond has done anything twice that we've seen. Desmond re-lived a small part of his life when turning the hatch key, it wasn't even any kind of loop. I don't see where all this 'evidence' of time loop theory is. Unless this is the first iteration of the loop and no one has done anything twice yet (other than Desmond obviously.) To change the past or for a 'loop' to occur someone needs to do the same thing twice in their own timeline. This just hasn't happened to anyone else yet.
All I'm asking is at least be respectful and recognize that time loop theory while it may be shared by others is in no way fact and that there are very valid reasons for people not to accept it. Thank you for your recaps but I would appreciate it if you were less dismissive of other peoples opinions.
Edit: fixed spelling error.
This entire discussion feels like a time loop
In short.. have always thought Hurley to be pivotal. The airport scene with Hurley not boarding the plane has always stayed in my mind. That, along with everything mentioned in the revap, and the fact that he is the one and only innocent.
Second, have never thought there was a time loop. Keeping things on track and as they should be, yes. But not a loop.
Great recap as usual, Vozz. I love the Hurley theory.
The Locke we follow now hasn't died yet. He knows Ben killed him by travelling to the future. That is why he knows so much now. Dead is dead.
With Ben playing both Locke and Richard it makes him more like the Judas character. But I still think Jacob might still be that "Lone survivor" of "The Black Rock" after reading your theory here.
I am a frequent visitor of the recaps here, and every week I would read through the arguments between Zorro and Vozzek.
Although I completely agree with Zorro and there are no proofs yet on the show for a giant time loop to exist, Vozzek actually has made a good recap this week and need to be given credits. Good job for you both, and let's see who is going to win at the end.
SpecialAgentDaleCooper... I totally agree. I think everyone needs to chill. This is supposed to be a debate, not an attempt to make one side capitulate to the other. Just because someone refuses to yield their position doesn't mean they are being difficult or pompous, or on the other side it doesn't mean they are being a dictator... as long as we can keep the discussion friendly.
I personally think vozzek does an awesome recap. Don't agree with everything, but very well written (always funny) and thought provoking. I do agree a lot more with zorro, and I think he makes a lot of sense. But the two of them need to bury the Jughead, er, hatchet, and let's get back to debating.
Okay, so on the subject of the red shoe dude, how did Eloise know about him anyway? No matter which side of the loop fence you're on, this one has to stump you. Someone had to have told her about that incident for her to know it was going to happen. There's no other way, since that scene was only witnessed by her and Desmond. It makes me wonder if we are going to see Des jump back to 1970's island time to somehow relay this story to young Eloise. That would explain why she told him the island wasn't through with him yet... if her younger self witnessed him come back from the future, that would explain how she knew that. But that doesn't jive with her comment to Penny that she doesn't know what's going to happen next. (unless she was lying)
And speaking of people who always know what’s going to happen. How did Ben know to send creepy Harper to find Juliet in the jungle in the exact right place at the exact right time, knowing that Charlotte and Daniel were on their way to the Tempest? As Juliet pointed out, the Losties had Ben captive, how could he know anything? Harper: “Ben is exactly where he wants to be.” And although I can't pinpoint any other scenes at the moment, I know there have been other instances where Ben seemed to know exactly what was going to happen. How is this possible? Interesting that while the Losties were in 2004 on the island, Ben always had the upper hand, always one step ahead of them. But 2007 Ben doesn't have that advantage anymore.
And I totally agree on the Ben playing dumb thing. He's playing dumb, the same way he played dumb when he asked Ilana what was in the box. And Vozzek is right, Ben (not Emerson) is a very bad actor. However, I have to say I don't think he was acting when he stopped in his tracks on the "gonna kill Jacob" comment. He looked absolutely thunderstruck, and were those TEARS in his eyes? Such a bad actor as Benjamin Linus could not do THAT on cue. What is UP with the Jacob thing?
Richard stumps me as well. He does seem fearless in every other respect, like he knows nothing is ever going to happen to him. But he looked pretty shocked at the mention of killing Jacob. And he had absolutely no clue about what was going on when future John sent him to help past John. He is special somehow but it seems he is not in tune at all with what the island wants. Maybe that's why he's a perpetual advisor and not the leader?
Good stuff.
Lost is fun exactly because we don't know what will happen and sci-fi is fun because anything can happen. V's recaps and thread's are fun because so much care is given by V and by each commenter to the presentation/discussion on the theory of lost.
I love reading everyone's ideas. V's writing is superb and his thoughtfulness about character, his ingenuity on plot and his supposition on motivation is a delight. Ultimately I don't care if he right or wrong.
On the other hand, Z is argumentative and not fun to read. He is more concerned about being right than demonstrating how much he loves the tangled weave of Lost. I really think Z that you should take a break from the screen....I don't care what you think anymore. I don't care if you are right. We will learn the answers soon enough. I come here to expand the joy of lost beyond what abc offers. And you my friend are a drag.
^^Nice post JulieSTL - what needs to be considered is that Des (in FBYE) appears to be reliving his life and wants to change (marry Penny, no island) but Eloise stops him - is that b/c he can change things and EH wants to avoid that? And the whole, dare i say it, looping effect is because of swan energy - which is exactly where we are heading next wed. There is evidence in the show of both sides of the argument and it must be intentional on the writers behalf. We are arguing/debating exactly what we are supposed to.
Otherwise its quadrangle y'all - and isnt the quadrangle a sign of the beast, like six six six? Oh, its pentagram? Whatev
as homework, i think everyone should watch all 30 seasons of doctor who. probably no alternative timelines or other universes here, but definitely people can interact with themselves in the past (a la Miles most likely not trying to avoid an infant).
especially those most interested in changing the timeline. Locke does not want to change the timeline--he ensures that he will try to hang himself to ensure that Ben kills him. Locke wants that to happen.
others, like Jack, may want to interact with their former selves. not sure they'll get the chance, though.
i like the hugo angle. his luck and demeanor are suspect, for sure. i do find it interesting that he wanted to make $ off star wars, though, since he didn't want any part of his lottery winnings or the oceanic 6 hush $. maybe he just wanted Chewie to raise the 'fury fist' instead of Han.
@ When Sawyer Tells Kate... "This entire discussion feels like a time loop" - I have to tell you, that is one of the funniest lines I have read in awhile! Thank you for a much needed, lighthearted moment. I don't know if you uber-analysts on the board realize just how much people like me (and Lordy, I hope there's more than just me) love to read your insights & interpretations. I have never been very good at picking things apart (blame that on years of nuns making me analyze "Fire & Rain). So it's great to read your posts, think about the content and try to figure out what the heck is coming next. This sounds trite, but PLEASE, don't suck the life out of this. Let's enjoy it....now, everybody skate backwards!
I have to stop reading your recaps, you're basing everything you see on your theory that it's all revolving around a big time loop. You don't even seem to consider other possible directions the show could go, and it's just getting annoying to see you answer everything with 'umm... TIME LOOP'. Also you wrote a few times 'I think we can all agree that I'm right' or something along those lines. That's just silly.
(I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more!)
^thanks - you know what happens when you take a work of fiction too seriously...religion --ok i retract that, dont wanna stir the pot