Here is the long awaited Season 3 review by Fishbiscuit.
What's It All About?
or
A Non Unified Theory of Lost

Sometimes it seems like Lost wants to be all things to all customers.
It's got yer magic,

yer mysteries,

yer comedy,

yer tragedy.

It's got everything.
Philosophy.

Science fiction.

Mysticism.

Word games.

Name games.

Sex!

Drugs!

Rock & roll!
...Well, really there isn't enough rock and roll on Lost. Maybe they can work that in next year.
Another way to look at it is that the whole big beautiful mess is a kind of labyrinth, with intricate pathways that all look plausible, but that mostly are fakes.

A shell game. A three card Monte

Where you keep thinking you know where it's going, but just when you're 100% sure, you run smack into another dead end and realize what an idiot you sound like defending theories that constantly blow up in your face.

But probably the most accurate description, at this point in time, and it leaves all the other avenues open, is that Lost, as Carlton Cuse said recently, is a MOSAIC. A pattern being built out of order that won't make any sense until the last tile slips into place.

It's an ideal metaphor for Lost as we know it - not least because of the visual artists and cinematographers who make this show a thing of such beauty. The one mainstay of Lost, especially in this just ended Season Three, is that even when the storytelling falters, it always looks amazing. And since we moderns are such a visual people, it's important that they tell this story so well in pictures. So with pictures we'll try to figure it out.
First things first.

It's a challenge to parse out the constant collage of themes and motifs the writers throw at the audience, but let's start here: The rabbit. Specifically, a white rabbit. Like the one

who led Alice into Wonderland, later revisited in Through the Looking Glass,

a world where the White Queen is living time backwards, where memories flow in both directions. Sort of how they do on Lost. And where we're never really sure what direction the time is moving in.
It's About Time.

Time on Lost is an unchained melody. This season time was really hopping and bopping on Lost. In Flashes Before Your Eyes, Desmond found himself transported back to his own past.

He had memories of his future self...I mean, his present self (his present self being a guy from the future living in his own past) ...and what he was forced to learn was ... that he had no choice but to relive that past in exactly the same way, even though he now knew it would lead him inevitably to banishment and pain.
His teacher's name was Mrs. Hawking.

A name not to be taken lightly. Her bizarre predictions raised one of the big questions in her namesake's book :

Is time travel possible? This actually requires no advance degree to respond. Short answer: No way.
So why do so many geniuses spend so much time trying to think up ways that time travel might be possible? Theoretically, it's possible for matter to pass through something called wormholes. Maybe Desmond traveled from one spot on the great time space continuum to another...

....only he'd need infinite amounts of exotic matter to provide him the negative energy required to accelerate all his subatomic particles faster than the speed of light. Quantum physics to the layman doesn't really sound any less fantastical than unicorns. Sometimes it kind of sounds like teenagers discussing last night's Dungeons and Dragons game. But in televised fiction, it's the looking glass that science passes through to become science fiction.

Not to mention the time travel thing will get your head spinning if you try and think it through, even without the quantum physics. The classic question goes something like this - If you travel back to before you were born and kill your father, how can you still exist?

Tell me that's not a relevant question on this show.
Physicists are all wicked smart, but the way they answer this kind of question still reminds me of the way five year olds answer big questions. They just make stuff up... We are to imagine that time is like a whirlpool within a river, where in certain places time loops around back on itself. Or it's like a tree that can branch off into parallel, alternate, concurrent realities, all totally independent and even contradictory to each other.
Maybe in one universe the Flight 815 passengers all died, like Naomi said,

but in this other one, they are alive and well (or as well as can be expected).

As for how she got between the two universes...hell, she was in a spacesuit!

Maybe she got super accelerated faster than the speed of light. Basically, in quantum phsyics, if you can somehow manage to get accelerated faster than the speed of light, you can pretty much be God. Only problem is, you know, that's still about as reality based as unicorns. But time travel is one of those rabbit holes, one of those trails on the labyrinth, that Lost took a detour into this year. We just don't know yet if it's a dead end or not.
It's about Destiny.

Mrs. Hawkings tells Desmond that he must simply go back through all the paces of his past and repeat every action he now knows was a mistake, because if he doesn't "then every single one of us is dead!". And she tells him "You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to."
Supposed to? Pretty weak way to put it. It's not like he HAS to. He's just SUPPOSED to? Like how we're all supposed to eat five servings of vegetables every day? Strange, because she also says he is forced to turn the failsafe key. So did Des have any choice? Could he have chosen to do differently and let mankind die?
And that brings us to Jack on the fateful day that Locke told him "You're not supposed to do this."

Which, many years later, Jack seemed to be agreeing with, when he told Kate "We weren't supposed to leave."

Could Jack have chosen differently? Given the circumstances, why would he have chosen differently? It almost seemed like he was forced to conclude the phone call was the right thing to do. And you know, the funny thing about Jack's future is there didn't seem to be anything "wrong" about it...

....except for Jack. L.A. seems to have survived from whatever apocalypse hit good Dr. Jack. The freeways and hospitals and slums and airports are all still there. Mankind has clearly survived. It looks like things worked out as they were 'supposed to' in the end....Or did they?

Desmond is not named Hume for nothng.

Hume the skeptic, who didn't want to be pinned down on exactly how a cause creates an effect, except to call cause and effect "the cement of the universe".
One thing we all tend to count on in life: the cause comes first,

then the effect.

As Charlie learned all too well.
But nothing, unfortunately, is ever that simple. If one believes in destiny, as Desmond does, as Mrs. Hawking made it clear he had to, then that means the effect (your destiny) comes before the cause (what you do to create that destiny). Since the destiny has to happen, all the things that lead up to it are caused by what they cause!

Or to borrow a much clearer explanation, from Through the Looking Glass, which is our guidebook after all:
... `For instance, now,' she went on, ... `there's the King's Messenger. He's in prison now, being punished: and the trial doesn't even begin till next Wednesday: and of course the crime comes last of all.'
`Suppose he never commits the crime?' said Alice.
`That would be all the better, wouldn't it?' the Queen said ...
I hope everyone is following this. In other words, Charlie had to die...which caused him to do the things that would cause his death. See? It's elementary.
So, if time is moving backwards, or in spirals, or any which way it chooses, then does that mean our characters can step in and out of this time space continuum at will? Does that mean Jack's fans will get to see their hero stagger out of his drug addled state

and flash back to the moment before he made that phone call,

so he can "fix" all the wrongs that were caused by that action? Hmmm, dunno. Hope not. That kind of sounds like Gilligans Island meets Dr. Who, which - hilarious as that might actually be - would be a jump the shark evolution of epic proportions. But I will note that the voice on the end of the phone Jack called - the bad guy, I'm guessing - was named Minkowski. And that would also be the name, because a name is never just a name on Lost, of the famous mathematician Herman Minkowski, an associate of Einstein and the first to define and name the concept of Timespace (binding time to space as the fourth dimension).

We may be Enslaved by Time and Space, but rules are made to be broken and who knows? There may still be an escape hatch hiding somewhere out there in Timespace.

To sum all this up, the characters on Lost may be trapped in a block of Timespace that allows them to super accelerate their atomic subparticles and travel like chrononauts through time, where the future causes the past but any screwups along the way and all of humanity will be destroyed. OR they could just be stuck on a Craphole island they were predestined to crash land on and are as helpless as most of us are trying to understand all the quantum physics mumbo jumbo I have tried to decipher for this piece.

I think we need to change gears here. Time was far from the only important story this season. We really should be getting back to the rabbits.

One thing rabbits do very efficiently is make more rabbits.

And it was hard to ignore that theme on Lost this season.
It's about Redemption.

Maybe.
This is probably the glibbest and most popular way of summarizing Lost's "meaning". It's a thin description. Lost isn't about Redemption the way the Sopranos is about the Mafia, for instance. But the story does concern itself with the Circle of Life and Death and Birth. And Death.
We found out Sun's baby was Jin's.

And in about a month or so, it's going to put Sun six feet under.

This is also a problem for Kate...

who, after making the hot, hot love with Sawyer, may now be carrying her very own Bundle of Death.
Actually, these babies are only getting a head start on what has become one of Lost's most consistent themes:

First, kill all the parents.
Not that they don't deserve it.

The characters of Lost are trapped in the Oedipal misery of a vicious Parent Trap. Where the killing of the father is not a crime, but almost a sacred rite of passage. Where little babies still in the womb suicide bomb their own mommies. The entire circle of life on the Island seems tainted and unclean.
It's enough to make you question where this Island = Redemption myth actually got started. The only guy who is actively dying and being reborn




doesn't really seem like much of a role model.
Eko did not repent

and he died.

Charlie did repent, many times over

and he died too.

So, if this is a story of redemption, it doesn't seem to be taking the black and white path of moral absolutism to get us there.
Love is redemptive. And this was supposed to be the Season of Romance. They remembered to name Jack's V3.0 Love Interest after the most famous romantic heroine in literature

but aside from that I think what we all learned this season was that maybe geeks should not be allowed to write romance. Not that there weren't moments of beauty,

of love in all its guises, romantic and otherwise,

but they had to be swallowed along with some really harsh doses of sado/maso imagery wrapped up as romance

and female characters left clawing each other in a kind of mirror image of the shipper groups they inspired.

I'm speaking here of course about the great Greek and Trojan Armies fighting Lost's Endless Battle of the Warring Contractions:
JATE!

vs.
SKATE!

Which doesn't look like much of a battle any longer, when you look at it in perspective, but hey, it's a long hiatus and if it makes people happy to still pretend this is a contest...Enjoy.
It's about Literature.
Visual generation or not, it helps to be a reader watching Lost.
From A Tale of Two Cities that set up the mini arc, where the future alcoholic Jack did the 'far, far better thing' to set the lovers free...to the tragic human raggedness Of Mice and Men...

to the vicious circles of fate and free will in Catch 22...

to the upside down cracked mirror of Through the Looking Glass, these stories were part of the story. The Bible was represented, with Ben, the youngest son of Jacob, the father of the twelve Israelite tribes... with references to Isaac and Abraham...to Naomi and Ruth..and with the ongoing confusion of whether Jack is meant to be our Good Shephard or our Moses...or just a big fat disappointment.
There were other, more obscure references as well, like the PALA FERRY in this shot,

which is reminiscent of Pala, the name of the Island in Aldous Huxley's book - a futuristic utopia where parrots give pep talks, spirituality is centered around a clifftop temple and everyone has LOTS of sex. (I'm seeing the tie ins, are you?) One book that seems a natural fit for Lost is Lord of the Flies - whose issues of social structure are on the minds of the writers, implicitly rather than explicity throughout the story.
We have Locke, who believed each life was a tabula rasa and that man's rights within society were natural and God given,

sometimes thought of as the Father of Liberalism.
The believer in mankind's innate goodness, Rousseau,

the Father of Socialism.
Burke, the believer in the natural superiority of the upper classes,

the Father of Conservativism.
And for good measure, Bakunin, the atheist,

the Father of Anarchism.
Uh, oh, we're back on the fathers again. That's never good. Although in most of our lives, fathers aren't bad people at all. In fact, for many of us, good old Dad is our first Hero. Which brings us to the very important idea...
It's about Heroes.
If I had to choose only one thing about Lost that makes it most special, I would have to say it is this:

The characters. The main ones. The minor ones. The dead ones that come back and visit.
There were some great character arcs this season.
Sawyer fell in love for the first time in his life,

travelled to the fringes of Redemption

only to be thrown violently back into the turbulent seas of his soul.

Desmond's story had its own seperate orbit, funneling through wormholes in Timespace.

Juliet came from nowhere to add an entirely new level of enigma and poignancy to the story.

Charlie stared into the eyes of destiny and found his apotheosis.

As for Kate's character arc this year, this face might be the best way to describe it:

We learned Ben's entire life story in one episode, from his beginnings as the original infant assassin

through his complex psychological profile as an exceedingly bizarre creature.

Locke climbed out of one pit

and fell into another.

But he climbed back out again, to challenge his alter ego....
Jack, who also came full circle this season,

from miserably stalking one woman in his past...

to miserably stalking a different one in his future.
Some people think Lost has a main character. But, does it? If Jack is the main character of Lost, then is Lost the Story of Jack? In other words, is Lost a Monomyth - the story of one hero, one person whose story reflects the story of any one of us as we fight through the Thunderdome of life.
The "mono" in the Monomyth is the Hero. The Hero goes on a Hero's Journey - a rigorous ritual of Departure, Initiation and Return marked by such stages as The Call to Adventure, the Training by the Mentor, the Meeting with the Goddess, the Inmost Cave, the Magical Boon...It's almost Dungeons and Dragons all over again! Actually, it's not as rigid as it sounds. Even little Alice goes on a Hero's Journey of sorts when she travels through the looking glass. So you see it can be adapted to fit almost any story, and that's the point.
So is Jack on the Hero's Journey?
He has a Challenge - he wants to go home. But that's hardly unique to Jack.

His medical skills make him "special", but he's not the only doctor on the Island either.
Who is Jack's Mentor? This guy?

Who was his Oracle? This chick?

His "Trials"

are just too wimp-ass for words.

Are these two his Allies?

Or just the only two people on the island who can stand to be around him?
We know Jack grew up wanting to be a hero.

We know he thinks he's the Hero.

But is that really how it works?
You can probably make a case that almost any other character on Lost is the Hero.
Sawyer has had a Reversal on his trail to the Adventure of rejoining the human race,

but he has been Tried and will surely be Tried again.

He has defeated his psychic Nemesis (and gained nothing by it).

He has found something that is Sacred to him.

He has a Mentor now,

and Allies...


but also the most unreadable path of any character. And that's not a bad place for a Hero's Journey to be at the midpoint of a story still very much in flux.
Lost may be a Fight Club of sorts, but there's no law that says girls can't be heroes, and Juliet, trapped on an enchanted island with an evil overlord

has been Called to the Adventure of giving life,

the Magical Boon they may all end up needing most before it's over.
Maybe Ben is the Hero.

He hits all the marks. (Plus, he's got the rabbit.)...
He's definitely special.

The Call to Adventure.

The Challenge.

The Goddess.

The Mentor.

The Magical Boon

...Unless being the "chosen one" of a temperamental poltergeist hermit isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Maybe Ben right now is in the Belly of the Beast phase of the journey,

and still has to defeat his Nemesis, a twist in the story no one will be expecting next year.
Maybe Locke is the Hero.

He was Called to Adventure even before he came to the Island, but it wasn't until he fell out of a plane with his spine magically restored that he became "special". He lost his way last season, but this year he struck out on his own path.
He has a Mentor.

A Nemesis.

And another Nemesis.

....aaaand another one.

He is visited by an Oracle in his time of need.

He's been to the Valley of Death,

and has found his Magical Boon, even though he doesn't know yet what it is. And you can't really fault him for that. Do you have any idea what's up with Jacob? No Hero has gone deeper into the mysterious unknown than the amorally intrepid Locke.

In the end, maybe he will be the Hero.
Maybe Desmond is the Hero.

Like Odysseus, who doesn't enter his own story until the second act, Desmond is still a relative newcomer to our story. But his story seems to cleave closest of all to that Mondo of all Monomyths. He was Called to Adventure

and was lost at sea

but the Goddess continues to search for him,

Penelope, named for Odysseus' own wife.
His Mentor set him on the correct path.

His Oracle kept him there.

(Plus these two seem to know each other!)

The hatch was his Belly of the Whale. He died and was reborn. And now he has the Magical Boon

that he still doesn't know what to do with. Not only does Desmond seem to be following the Hero's Journey most closely,

his fascinating story ripples furthest out into the larger tale.
But some fans are stubborn. A lot of people seem to think that Jack has to be our monomythical hero. It's like thinking outside of that box makes their heads explode. So, we'll give that one more shot. If Jack is the Hero, we just left him, at season's end, in the Inmost Cave. Dead. Hopeless. If the story is going to follow his monomyth, then the next step for this "hero" is the real life Hero's Journey known as Detox and Long Term Rehab. Followed by a new quest to round up the posse and return to the uncharted shores of who knows where. To reset time? To vanquish enemies? In other words a whole new show. Kind of like the Friends of Bill meet Captain Nemo. Does that sound good? We'll get some idea once the new posters come out for Season Four. If they look like this

we'll know that's exactly where they're taking this story.
Truth be told, there doesn't seem to be any one hero or protagonist on Lost, any more than there is one theme. With it's multiple viewpoints, its rejection of simplistic moral absolutes and the constant ironic cultural allusions, Lost is marked as a post modern piece of work. It borrows from the kind of techniques used in films like Magnolia.

It even borrows the cover art.

The antique chauvinisms of the Monomyth may end up being a poor fit for this rambling, sprawling tale.
In fact the only constant in the story, the only central protagonist I can positively identify is this one:

The Island itself.
As for a central theme, if anything, maybe this:

Namaste is one of those wonderful double meaning words that express their own opposite. Its the Hindi version of Aloha. Hello/Goodbye. Whichever works. Like so much on Lost, it's self referential. Like this logical impossibility:

Like Buddha, who told that the only people to reach Enlightenment are those who don't seek it. Like Hume, who believed that man could exercise Free Will only if his life was predetermined. Like Alice, who went through the mirror into the world where memories come before the actions they remember.
The eye

is a camera.
So often this season we found ourselves looking at people on our screens looking into screens at people looking out from screens.

Lost watches itself and we watch ourselves inside it. The Looking Glass reflects more than just the image of the looker.

"Art is a mirror not because it is the same as the object, but because it is different. " G. K. Chesterton
Next season, more tiles will shift into place and the picture in the mosaic will change yet again. Once the missing pieces are all added, who can guess what it will look like next?



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«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 239 Newer› Newest»Bravo! Fishbiscuit, this is wonderful stuff!
Fish you ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome Review geat Lol i feel sory for Eko and Charlie and for Sawyer too finaly when he found his way and found somebody who love.olnly to thrown him into his worst hightmare.But i most feel sory for Eko rest in pease!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW
OMG...no words for describing this...
Top notch stuff. Fantastic.
This isn't just the best review of the season, it's far and away the best analysis of the overall show that I've ever seen. I can't think of one that even comes close. This was created by someone who truly appreciates all the layers of Lost. Bravo!
nice!
Wow. Wonderful, thanks!
Fishbiscuit: Worth the wait! Bravo for wrapping up Lost's 3rd season with such a thought provoking review....there's enough there to chew on thorough the long hiatus.
LOL @ As for Kate's character arc this year, this face might be the best way to describe it
HAhah
Credo nos in fluctu eodem esse.
Definitely a five-star effort, FB. I truly enjoy the title, A Non-Unified Theory of Lost. The mosaic analogy is excellent, but I prefer a different image. In the episode Catch-22, Desmond described his flashes as a 'jigsaw puzzle' of sorts, but without the picture on the box. As I wrote previously: "Truthfully, the current pieces could fit together in an infinite number of ways. For the most part, Desmond was always wise enough not to jump to conclusions before watching the pieces start to fall into place. We should follow his noble example."
FB, if you get the chance, please read my two recent theories (the Man of Science, Man of Faith Theory and Good Men vs. Great Men) in the Theories section. I would love to get some feedback from you on what I have written. Once again, thanks for all of the great content.
Amazing. That review was just incredible. I think you hit the show head on and got it all right.
Good work!
That was entertaining. My fav were the photoshops of historical figures and movie posters. :)
Fantastic synopsis!!
Great! I like this review, your point of view is very close to mine specially that the characters are the most important thing, and that here it is not just a hero even eachone maybe are heroes.
Very good job Fishbiscuit!
WOW! Terrific recap of Season 3. Your comparisons of heroes this season on Lost was head on, I only feel bad you forgot Charlie, since his story is over. Great analogy with the mosaics, using TPTB own words. Nice job.
Jesus Christ *cries in frustration* WHY can't you just let me enjoy your review?????? I KNOW it's not a personal attack on ME of course, but you have SO good theories, SO good ideas, so good use of imagery, I keep wanting to read your thoughts SO badly... and then I get to the bashing. I keep commenting on your review too because I just don't understand - you're intelligent, you have excellent writing and comical skills, so why alienate half of your potential reading base? SO WHAT if you ship Skate?? So what if I ship Jate? We're all Lost fans, we should all be able to share ideas RESPECTFULLY without mocking each other and labeling our respective favourite ships and characters, and I WISH you'd show ME the same respect as I show YOU (to make it personal after all) by - if you are going to be biased - be it in a way positive to your own ship rather than negative to mine, because then I as a Jater could actually stand to read your seemingly VERY brilliant analysis! I like Sawyer, I want to hear your thoughts on him! I like his story of redemption, I could even like it through Kate, if I thought it was handled properly, which is why it always puts me off when someone hails it to the skies, completely overlooking the flaws that DO exist in their love story - if Kate loved Sawyer so much, why did she only go to him again after seeing Jack with Juliet? Why was she crying and telling him to shut up? You'd think I'd be happy that she at least is unhappy but I'm NOT, if they have decided on Skate then at least make her choice definitive, make her strong and decisive, make her actually seem like the WANTS to be with him. I don't think they do a very good job of this, and it annoys me because it's a mockery of both Sawyer and Kate's characters. If I was a Skater I'd be very upset, and that's why I get so aggravated when an opinion like yours comes along - not because you have it, because the more different opinions the better - but because you seem SO determined to shine the light of glory from Sawyer's big flashlight on Skate, and completely slam Jate down - skewing what actually happened - because it makes your other ideas seem less valid, when all your thoughts on all characters end in a proverbial "and oh btw Skate rockz and Jack should just go drown himself". I'm sorry, I'm so sorry that I couldn't finish reading your review! The first part was so good! I know this is falling on deaf ears but IMAGINE if it wasn't, if you didn't just dismiss my opinion as that of a delusional Jater who needs to open their eyes and see what a convoluted, rapist, repressing and pathetic ship they sail - I disagree, I have VALID OPINIONS and I'd LOVE to discuss them with you. Shipping UNITY, there's a battle I'm willing to fight for.
In conclusion: your opinions are FINE but please please don't skew scenes to make cheap jokes or mock characters/ships, it makes you seem less intelligent and mature that I'm sure you are.
Question: From what scene is this photo (Juliet on a balcony)?
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w78/fishbiscuit_photos/SeasonThree/J-balcony.jpg
This was not part of any scene, right? It looks like it is from "One Of Us". Who's the person she's shaking hands with?
OMG FISHBISCUIT !!!!!!! YOU ARE OUT OF THIS WORLD, GOD YOUR WRITING IS EXCELLENT ... EVERYTIME YOU MAKE A REVIEW ITS SO BANG ON..
LOVE EVERY WORD
THANKS THANKS THANKS .. THE BEST
i think this was one of the most awsum reviews i have read...EVER..n it has put the whole complicated third season in perspective fr me at least...thnks again......
Amazing review! You have outdone yourself. Please ignore all naysayers!
well, physicists don't just make stuff up, I kinda stopped reading after you said "physicists are all wicked smart." There's alot more to it than that.
I enjoyed your review, nice job! As far as deciding on a hero, if you judge it by screen time, it is probably Jack. But I think our heroes could be any of the main characters, my hero of the show for sure is Hurley! I hope that Jack and Kate show more redemptive qualities next season, I like them but not many people do....
I love your theories and your photos. Quite hilarious and thought-provoking at the same time. I have just one qualm with you: if someone is a sadomasochist, then sadomasochism IS romance to them. Don't knock it just because you haven't tried it ;). I mean, have you ever seen Secretary?
Those pictures of Locke, Rousseau, burke and Bauknin were HYSTERICAL! I didn't question them until I saw Bauknin. Very good!
As a regular UNIFIED poster I say "good recap of season 3." I thought your "Non Unified Theory of Lost" title was sunny! Lost is so complex it is difficult to boil down a whole season as you have done.
You said "MOSAIC. A pattern being built out of order that won't make any sense until the last tile slips into place." I think that as a mosaic is built, one can start to see what the artist is creating at some point. To make total sense of the mosaic you must wait for the last piece to slip into place as you said. If you see the mosaic being created and you see a flower over here and a patch of grass over there and a tree over near the flower...you might surmise that the mosaic is a meadow scene, maybe a yard or a park...but you are getting a better idea of what it's going to look like. I think that's where we are in the mosaic of LOST. I think now that we're more than half way done with the mosaic we can see it starting to take shape...One can fetch better guesses now than when we only had a petal of a flower or a sliver of wood as we did in season one and even season two.
I think it's clear that the ISLAND is the main character and always has been. In the S1 DVD bonus material they said that they envisioned this show where the Island was a character. We certainly see that more and more. Looking back at the episodes from the beginning, it's great to look back and see where we were being shown that character and didn't even know it. This is part of my currently-in-process "Magic Box" theory. :)
Though I didn't agree with your entire assesment I do want to say thank you for your contribution to the world of LOST!
I was thinking we might be able to get through a whole review without bashing Jack. OMFG he's a flawed character! *runs away*
But, leaving that aside, the photoshops of the philosophers were hilarious. I liiked at the Rousseau one and was really shocked at first because it looked like Danielle, then the others did too, and I had this cringe-worthy second wondering if they'd cast them to look like their namesakes... XD
I loved the allusion of the mosaic as well.
This was the first time I've read your reviews with a deep disappointment that I could NOT see the pictures. I only get a box with a red "X" in the center. And of course, your review continually referred to the pictures as telling most of your story so I was greatly disappointed to miss out on that, but as always, I love your wriing style and hope to hear more from you.
Hmmmmm...
Seems like I've read all of this somewhere before.
Very good post. However, I would not call it a review since it is not necessarily objective (a little biased). The pictures were fantastic. Excellent job on that.
Thanks for sharing all this hard work.
selina...
are you okay? you seem quite distraught over a review...get it together girl! why would you take someone's review of a season of television so personally? get a backbone! if people can't mock things from a show without a backlash from you then we are certainly ALL lost. i'm just stunned...maybe I should have taken the road everyone else has and ignored you.
"You may call it nonsense if you'd like; but I'VE seen nonsense, compared with which, that would seem as sensible as a dictionary."
...White Queen to Alice, "Throught the Looking Glass"
"...temperamental poltergeist hermit..."
I think I have found my new screen name!
Thanks, Fishbiscuit!
Joana, what do you call a personal assessment of a movie/book/television show? A review. Not a synopsis, not a summary ... a review.
I think it's a little silly (and I'm not referring to you here, Joana, but rather a few of the other posts) to see anyone up in arms over a review. Do you people write in to reviewers on a regular basis when they pan your favorite flicks? You don't have to be in agreement with every point to appreciate a well-written and thoughtful review. If you want a dry summary with no personal opinions included, feel free to read just that somewhere else.
awsome review, i loved it!!
Selina dont insult the Fish here please so she is skater so what the Fish rock!!!!!!!! she is great and i love her reviews a lot.And you saied in your post "why did she only go to him again after seeing Jack with Juliet".And here is the quote from Gregg Nations about Skate:"I don't think of Kate as a "prise" or Sawyer as a "consolation prise".I think of them as a complex people whose behavior and motivations are probably unknown to either of them.They don't seem to be very self-actualized people--they just react. When Kate goes to Sawyer crying.I read that more as HER DESIRING SOME SORT OF EMOTIONAL CONNECTION.It was primarily motivated by seeing Jack with Juliet,BUT IT DOESEN'T MEAN SHE ISN'T INTERESTED IN SAWYER.IF SHE WERE REALY USING SOMEONE,SHE WOULD GONE TO ANY GUY IN THE CAMP AND SLEPT WITH HIM.BUT SHE DIDN'T.THEY ARE TOGETHER AND HAVE BEEN TOGETHER.THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE IT AS A COUPLE THE BEST WAY THEY KNOW HOW.I never found either Kate or Sawyer to be upfront about their feelings.I DON'T SEE THEIR RELATIONSHIP OLNLY AS LUST OR SEX.I SEE IT AS TWO TROUBLED PEOPLE TRYING TO WORK IT OUT THE BEST WAY THEY KNOW HOW.THEY JUST DON'T HAVE A GOOD SET OF TOOLS TO USE OR COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER". And for the end please onse again don't insult the Fish because i respect her a lot.
chuck said...
Question: From what scene is this photo (Juliet on a balcony)?
The scene is from a video version of Romeo and Juliet.
Great analysis and great work on all of the photos.
Selina, i totally agree with you. Fishbiscuit, you're clearly a Jack Hater and/or a Skater/Mad about Sawyer. The First part was amazing, i really need to say, but you screwed up. Maybe the problem is with the Jack Haters, i personally don't think that Jack is the hero of Lost. They just wanna destroy, bash and make fun of the character no matter what. I'm so tired of this war, why can't we just respect each other and stop bashing? Depressing.
I'm not trying to insult anyone, it's just my point of view! And i think your review lost its way when you started beating and petting.
hulk: please don't start a ship war. Jaters will always not agree with as skaters will. It's endless.
Joshy im sory i don't like to start a ship war.And the Fish don't bash Jack that is the reality about his character.
Great review, one of the best things ive read on LOST just about ever...
Only problems with it is:
- What about being stuck in the cage? Couldn't that have been the trials instead of him catching the horrible pass from Friendly?
- Doesn't seem that the survivors seem think Jack is the hero too?
- Also I think his challenge isn't just going home, its getting everyone home. I believe this is why Jack is so messed up in the future, not everyone is off the island.
Everything else you said is true and here's hoping you have more writing in ya over the hiatus.
hulk: the thing is: you think that what she said is the reality, but i don't! That's my point ;)
I was into it all the way through, thinking, I can't wait for her conclusion.
Then, very Lostically, she says, "wait til next season for my conclusion."
Funny stuff in there, and some keen observations, but it's sound and fury until you sort out more than that.
im not a liar ok. that is your opinion my opinion that is the reality.
Brilliant! Well done, Fish! Thanks for putting this review together.
Amazing review.
What more is she supposed to sort out? Don't we all just have what we've been shown so far and how we all personally digest/process the show, its mythology, philosophies, religious themes, sci fi/physicists theories and what not to go by? We don't have the full picture yet...so there’s only so much “sorting out” that can be done at this point.
Having said that, Fish this was a wonderful review. I had my misgivings about this season from time to time, but in looking back over it as a whole...there isn't much not to like. There is certainly a lot of things to ponder over this long hiatus, but reading reviews such as yours certainly aid in looking at the show as a whole with a new perspective. Great job.
I like your review, good job!
I only have to say one thing, not about the review ( it made me think about it), yes about lost and this season (my personal opinion, ok?): I don't like the lost female characters, I hate them (all are weak, stupid, crazy, manageable, dependent...) They have SO MANY great male characters (Desmond, Sawyer, Ben, Locke, Sayid,MY personal favourites) this is soooo annoying (I am a woman). Sometimes I hate Lost and their writers (men, of course!).
do you have any empirical data, jacob's chair, to support your claim that all female LOST characters are weakl and stupid and crazy and such...?
Kate is ALWAYS willing to help out!
Juliet double-crossed THE OTHERS!
Claire's endoured her baby gettting stolen, and herself!
As for the men...Desmond can't even get over his pride and just stay with Penelope. Sawyer is headed down a very dark path, and the male egos on this island are larger than life! Why do you hate the girls so much?!
Your review really made me realize why I don't like Jack: He's displayed as the main character even though he's not.
The best contenders for the main character or 'hero'?
Desmond or Locke
DESMOND
- His story is in no way over and is at most at it's midpoint.
- He has his one goal and the thing he is fighting for: Penny
- He's got an enemy, the one person keeping him from his goal: Widmore.
- As said by Desmond, "I'm a coward", a weakness he must overcome
- He's got his oracle, as you said.
LOCKE
- He's the nobody-turned-hero. He had the weakness, his broken back, and the island turned him into a hunter.
- He has his lost love, Helen.
- He's got loads of enemies. Cooper, who created his weakness and took away his love.
- He's got Jack, his total opposite. His Agent Smith. His Tyler Durden. His Darth Sidious.
- Not to mention he's had the most spiritual journey and is more in-contact with the island than anyone else. From finding the hatch, to Boone's death, to pressing the button, to becoming an other, he is the most facinating and unpredictable characters on the show. Only time can tell what effects Walt and Jacob will have on him next season.
Goodness, I am as shipper-oriented as the next gal, but Selina I think you are way too focused on the shipping elements in the review which were hardly there at all. The pictures speak for themselves, anyway.
I think Fishbiscuit really drove home the point that Lost is multi-faceted and multi-layered. It appeals to a wide range of people because it's not just about romance, it's not just about character redemption, it's not just about ordinary people finding the inner strength to do extraordinary things, nor just about some strange conspiracy involving a mysterious island and its whacky inhabitants. It's all of those things and more.
This review celebrated that. It certainly wasn't a treatise on the pros and cons of the dreaded triangle. So why try to turn it into one?
This was really cool. I'd just like to thank and applaud Fishbiscuit for putting all that work into suck a phat post.
*such
Okay everybody. Let's be politically correct and say Jack is the awsomest!
Feel better Selina and Joshy?
That was a great read fishbiscuit, well done!!!
this was ridiculously awesome
theodosia, I think you may have summed up exactly what it would take to keep Selina and Joshy happy.
LOVE your season recap FB, didn't think you could do any better than your previously well-thought out reviews, but this is definitely the best ever! You've included everything from this season in the best way possible, from the theories to the characters - managing to convey the broad spectrum of ideas on what this show is all about and using images to remind us all of the wonderful feast we've had in S3. Not to forget about those manips of the characters and their namesakes, superb! This was a perfectly balanced review all round imo, top of the class!
keep 'em coming, don't think i've ever laughed as hard as when i read "his trials" followed up with the picture of jack playing football. inspired, really.
Locke must be the hero because he saw a magical Boone!
Shippers --- Fishbiscuit correctly points out that we have seen the future, and there are strong indications that Kate ends up with neither.
I have disagreed, but not with this post...WELL DONE, FB!
You peeled back the layers of the onion very skilfully. Again, well done...
oh my god, I didn't read up to the end, next time make your delirium a bit shorter.
babybird said:"do you have any empirical data, jacob's chair, to support your claim that all female LOST characters are weakl and stupid and crazy and such...?"
I think Fishbiscuit is right about this, it isn't her or his fault, the writers show us this women's face, Kate had an erratic behaviour all second half of the season, Juliet is so mysterious and Claire is too much mother...I'd really want that this could change, cause I liked first half season Kate (as an strong heroine,resolutive and brave, and as Sawyer's love :), cause I love Sawyer), Claire could develop more as a character even been a mother and for Juliet I like Juliet as she is...so mysterious but I think that maybe we'll know her more next season.
What's striking about this review is how there's so much in it about the show, yet so little Jack. To everyone who thinks he's so essential to the show, look around. There is so much here that has nothing to do with Jack. Desmond's story and Locke's story seem more integral to the show than Jack's does, and neither of their stories even need Jack's presence to develop. Sawyer and Kate are a fine love story without Jack, crackling chemistry and lots of potential left untapped. If Jack is gone, Ben still has connections to multiple characters to keep him in the thick of the story. Sayid, Hurley, Sun or Jin - none of these characters need Jack to be interesting or to find places in the story. I don't think I've ever seen it spelled out quite so clearly how basically unimportant Jack really is to this show. Some fans are still clinging to Jack's importance but the show seems to have moved on without our noticing it.
Nicolas: That was perfectly stated and gets to the central issue...Jack and Jate fans see Jack as the CENTRAL character on Lost, they see the story as being written about and around him and maybe at one time this was true, in S3 not so much. This entire cast has so much potential and TPTB seem to have recognized this and moved away from the 'Jack Show', IMO that decision makes Lost much more watchable!
Sigh. I'm digging myself into a pit full of indignant Skaters. The further I dig, the more there are! It's like finding gold, except it's not at all. If only it was.
And ummm guys, I didn't insult Fishbiscuit. No, I didn't, so stop typing angry replies. I said her review was great. I think however that content in this review is below her standards. The reason I don't just ignore her reviews and your ridiculous flames is because I think the review and ideas she has are fabulous. Just, as I stated before, some sections are so biased - and cruel - that if FOR ME makes the entire review lack credibility.
"If you want a dry summary with no personal opinions included, feel free to read just that somewhere else."
Who said I did? I didn't, so don't assume. I detest the shipping war, but there's a REASON it's not stopping, and it's been confirmed by Fishbiscuit's insulting review > me getting insulted > me posting this > other people firing up at ME and MY opinion > me firing up at YOU. And I kind of take a step back and just completely lose steam, because it seems like most shippers not of Jate I've met so far in the Lost world have heard I'm a Jater, then they seek out to insult me every possible way they can, ignoring all valid points I may or may not have. Maybe it's to protect themselves, maybe it's a chip you've had implanted so every time you hear the word "jate" or "jack" you go boom. It's a recurring theme, you have to admit. Avid Skaters, don't you ever take a step back and just check if you're being biased or delusional? I do with my ship, and it's a good tip, because as shippers we've already got enough to deal with - Fed-Ex jokes, anyone? - to be fighting each other! It's a SHIP for heaven's sake it's not the end of the world - and yes, I DO care about shipping very much, for me it's a big part of the fandom, as I'm sure it is for you, that's not a crime (whatever the sci-fi ppl tell you= - I care SO much that this negativity and unnecessary cruelty affects me stronger than it should.
Don't throw stones. You go to a Lost website, you read these comments - you already live in the glass house.
argh, I don't want to be fighting! I want to express my views about a review, ALL my views, not just blatant adoration! I want to make a comment without being accused of being unintelligent or only watching the show for Jack! This is NOT about Jack or Jate or Skate or Vincent, it's about PEOPLE not respecting each other. Maybe I'm too much of a Human Rights student, but if we can't respect each other in a silly situation such as this, how will we fare out in the real world where there is a disagreement? Don't you know the saying, it's not what you say it's the way you say it? THAT is my problem.
Imma go to lunch. Thanks for reading, if you did. One day Skaters and Jaters won't hate each other like the pest, we'll be civilised and sci-fi ppl won't think so badly of us. Fed-Ex jokes are getting OLD!
Oooh ps, for debate's sake, I never thought Lost was a Jack show actually! I recognise that he's had a lot more screen time than the rest of the cast, which is fair enough in my opinion, a) because I'm lucky enough to like him, and b) because the producers picked him as the main character... but that said, I never would WANT a Jack show, and I don't think there is any one central character to Lost, that's the brilliance of it. Right now I'm thinking that Desmond is probably the character most integral to the mythology of the show, while Locke is the spiritual part, the mystery. Ben represents the past of the island, and it will probably be through him and Richard (and Mikhail?) that we'll learn about it. Jack represents the human part, the hero/anti-hero that the audience can watch try and fail, though hopefully succeed in the end, rise up against the much more powerful story elements surrounding him. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Claire, Juliet, Sun, Hurley and Jin are all puppets in the greater game, and Jack has so far been ONE of the front figures, whether you like it or not. As has Kate, as has Sawyer, whether you like it or not. Why not just enjoy the ride instead of hating hating hating? I really don't understand wasting time on hate... Is that enjoyable, really?
lmfao, i loved it....ugh i want more..please write more,
but um
nobody's asked this..
WHAT DID YOU DO THAT TO MS.HAWKING FOR!??!?!? OH MY GOD THAT PICTURE IS FUNNY....AND OF COURSE I SO GET THE REFERENCE, HAHA..NICE WORK
Selina, you sound extraordinarily self obsessed. You seem to be whining that a very intelligent, layered, intriguing and humorous review takes issue with the ugliness of the Jack/Kate relationship and doesn't think Jack is in any way the central representative of the human part of the story at all. Boo hoo for you that your point of view is not shared by such a perceptive reviewer. Maybe there's a clue in there for you. If you hadn't noticed, Jack did NOT have the most amount of screen time in this season. He was absent from a great many episodes and had an extremely minor role to play in many others. They do seem to be shifting the focal point of the story character wise. It sounds like you will need to be hospitalized once this realization hits you, so maybe you just need to take a long break from all this. I'm sure this reviewer is not going to ever cater her talents to meet your self centered demands, so give it up.
Let's not get personal here people.......
Strip away the amateur photoshopping and there ain't much there I'm afraid.
Entertaining though.
Strip away the amateur photoshopping and there ain't much there I'm afraid.
Except for the analysis of the essential underlying self referential paradoxes at the heart of the show. And the defining of the show as a post modernist deconstruction of the hero myth...Crikey, can you point me to your superior analysis? I've missed it.
< I don't think I've ever seen it spelled out quite so clearly how basically unimportant Jack really is to this show. >
Jack's reduced screentime this past season does show us he is not essential to the show, doesn't it? We didn't even see sight nor sign of him in some of the best episodes this season. Whether inadvertently or not (and most likely because it has been the case) - this review does make it abundantly clear how this character is really just like the other characters in that he's just one of the fantastic ensemble cast - and he is no way central compared to any one of them.
The fact that we've seen less of Jack also could be a hint that MF is the one getting less screentime next year perhaps? We've already seen it doesn't negatively affect the show in any way when he's not present.
I love Fishbiscuit's presentation of so many of the characters and the island as the protagonists of Lost here. How right she is!
"Except for the analysis of the essential underlying self referential paradoxes at the heart of the show."
Can't beat a bit of cod philosophy on a Friday afternoon! ;)
I'll just keep it civilised because I do want to keep discussing. I'm sorry if I came off self obsessed - I really don't understand where you got that, but that's your perspective! I'd hate to come off this way at any rate, no matter in whose eyes. I really want to stress - for the third time - that I really do enjoy the overall review, the thoughts and theories the reviewer presents, and the overall structure. But you actually touch upon the very problem I continually find with getting through a review such as this:
"You seem to be whining that a very intelligent, layered, intriguing and humorous review takes issue with the ugliness of the Jack/Kate relationship"
See up until the word ugliness, I was about the accept your point of view, but this is just the problem isn't it? Jack/Kate is an ugly relationship?
...
Alright, that's your point of view. But that's all it is. a point of view, and I WISH it would be presented as such. It's a suggestion, a plea, an idea for how to make the reviews more accessible for as many Lost fans as possible. Maybe FB is fine just catering for Jack haters and Skaters, in which case, I really DO need to look elsewhere for reviews, because I am neither of those. But just maybe she'd want to a) not offend people and b) get more readers. I'd want to be her reader, I obviously want it enough to argue this with you in my lunch break... it's all because we could all just get along if we stopped slamming down the other perspective and showing our own worldview as fact. So it's sad, so sad, it's a sad sad situation (and it's getting more and more absurd teehee), that I'm trying to take action against. Can't blame me for trying to make nice! :)
And I did say that Jack is ONE of the representatives. In my eagerness to get my post out I did forget to say what you do point out Nicolas, that this last season Jack hasn't been as central as before. I'd rank that Kate>Juliet>Locke>Sawyer>>Desmond>Jack>Ben>Charlie>Hurley, off the top of my head... I'm a realist. I'm a Jater, yes, but I'm also a realist, and I know Jate won't necessarily happen, and that MF might be the alienated cast member. I just wouldn't be gloating if our roles had been reversed... maybe that's where we go wrong with each other? I don't know. I'd love ideas on this, because it's pretty interesting how easy it is for us to fight and gang up on each other, isn't it?
And I assure you I will not need hospitalization...... but I think you were probably just trying to overemphasise your point. Just clarifying, you know...
It is difficult to find common ground at times, Selina. I understand your point.
But I would like to hear your caviar philosophy, Crikey.
Sounds a bit fishy to me :D
I do love the banter on here, I hope no one takes me too seriously. (I do have a B.A. Hons in Philosophy by the way!)
(I do have a B.A. Hons in Philosophy by the way!)
Then all the more reason for you to share rather than just carp from the sidelines.
I'd rather perch on the sidelines, I know my plaice.
I agree that the shipper's blatant slams at Jack fans sullied what would have otherwise been a really good read.
I'd never heard of fishbiscuit prior to this column, so had no preconceptions going in. The biased pro-Skate, anti-Jate stance took the piece out of the "review" realm and right onto the front line of the shipper wars.
Sad for those of us who try to stay far from the fray.
If anything this theory is very well thought out, extreamly well written and makes us look forward to Season 4.
Well done Fishbiscuit
So, did anyone besides Fish and her clan of biscuit eating Jack haters from Fishbiscuitland review this? It was okay, but too biased in certain directions for my taste and I really don't agree with most of it, but it's always fun to read the opinions of those that believe they're smarter and could do a better job than those who actually write Lost. I'm glad Lost isn't really as Fishbiscuit sees it. I'm sure I wouldn't watch her gross misinterpretation of what the majority of us see.
WOW!!!!!! Logan1858 please please tell me what is wrong about Fish's review and wath see the majority .i think Fish is the best Reviewer for Lost on internet.
Uhh, okay... Am I the only one who completely missed all the "blatant biases" of the review? Surely I can't be the only one with a life?
[shun all shippers]
I thought it was a great and insightful piece.
Thanks FB!
[/shun]
I'd rather perch on the sidelines, I know my plaice. - crikey
Maybe I'm easy, but this cracked me right up. :)
FishBiscuit - Your review is awesome! Whoever did your manips is brilliant, those philosopher portraits and mosaics are superb.
I like that you touched on so many aspects of the show. There are layers and layers to the story; compelling characters; a beautiful but mysterious island; a history that goes back at least a generation or two; and now we even have a new set of post-rescue riddles to drive us mad. No wonder we're all addicted to this show! It was a fabulous season and I'm glad you were impressed enough with it to put so much time and thought into your review.
I thought Jack had a stranglehold on the show for most of Season 2, and I'm very glad they sidelined him for much of this one so the other characters could step forward with stories of their own. Most importantly, without Jack at the center of everything, we got to see a lot of interaction among other sets of Losties, something that I think was sorely missing in S2. One of the best things about this season, for me, was watching Characters-Other-Than-Jack spending real time together, e.g. Desmond & Co. on their camping trip; Hurley and the boys with the van and the beer; Sayid and Sawyer in many scenes; Juliet and Sun; Locke and Ben; Sawyer and Hurley; Locke, Kate and Sayid on their trek to rescue Jack. I really hope they keep to this approach of mixing up groups of characters interacting with each other.
I think you covered so many aspects of Season 3 that I'm loath to point out one that I didn't see you mention... sacrifice. I think sacrifice was a major theme running through the season. Several characters made sacrifices... Juliet sacrificed ethics off island, her morality on it... something she wants to make amends for by going back to help on the beach in the finale. Jack sacrificed his principles and made a bargain with the devil, trying to gain freedom for Kate and Sawyer. In TTLG, he was willing to sacrifice the lives of Sayid, Jin and Bernard for the sake of getting them all rescued. Sawyer was willing to sacrifice his life to save Kate's, and put himself in jeopardy to go help his friends on the beach. Desmond saved Charlie from the arrow, even though he thought it meant sacrificing a chance to see Penny again. And of course, Charlie sacrificed his life for the chance of getting Claire and Aaron to safety.
It was a brilliant season, IMO, and your review more than does it credit. I can't wait for next year, and I look forward to reading your reviews then too.
Selina - Your long, morally-superior posts are every bit as insulting as you find this reviewer is. If you don't like her opinions, there's a simple remedy, don't read them. Do you write long-winded letters to Roger Ebert - over and over again - every time he pans a movie that YOU happened to like? Sheesh!
FishBiscuit:
I really enjoyed reading ur season 3 review. I loved the pics, especially of Mikhail & Desmond.
Keep up the great work mate, I can't wait for ur season 4 pics & recaps!!
I'm probably in the minority here, but I think that Kate's relationship with Sawyer is much uglier than her relationship with Jack. The episodes "What Kate Did" and "I Do" really spell out the root of Kate's attraction to Sawyer. Kate suffers from low self-esteem, an issue that originated with her relationship with her father Wayne. Deep down, Kate desires to be with a man like Jack or Kevin or her other father Sgt. Sam Austen. However, she cannot stand being close to a good man like any of those guys, because she herself feels that she could never live up to that standard. However, she feels much more comfortable with a lowlife like Sawyer, because she does not have to live up to his expectations. Kate's attraction to Sawyer comes from an ugly self-loathing and a desire to feel like a good person (if only by comparison to Sawyer).
lol I'm not joning the ship war or anything but methosrocks: Selina acts "morally superior" in response to fish's attitude of being intelligently superior, by presenting her views as fact even though they are just opinions... out of the two I know who I'd rather be in the same room as...
Well, reading your theories, luhks, and your simplistic assessment of Kate needing to be made worthy of her male betters, I'd say it might be best if you don't give "insight" into what people's shipper preferences mean about them as human beings. You seem to be watching this show through exactly the kind of black/white moral prism this story consistently rejects and what's more - you'd like to extend that sense of judgment to the audience themselves! No thanks. I'll take a pass on that.
Nicolas, was that an attempt at reverse psychology, because you absolutely motivated me to step up to the challenge. Have you read my essay Good Men vs. Great Men? I don't think that I was promoting any kind of black/white moral prism, but a vast spectrum of all of the different shades of gray.
Also, I agree that I wrote a very simplistic assessment of Kate (and I think that FB's reviews on the subject are equally simplistic). That is the very reason that I wanted to look at everything more deeply in a more detailed argument.
I did read it, luhks, and I couldn't believe that you were using your personal assessments of these characters to extrapolate that a given fan's character preferences indicated whether they preferred moral goodness or amoral greatness. Maybe they just reflect the entertainment value of the given characters!
I think any attempt to categorize this story into moral compartments, as you seem intent on doing, is misguided. And seeing as you've already put yourself on record categorizing the complexity of Sawyer into "lowlife" and assessing Kate, the killer, as a female who needs to find her salvation through morally superior males - I'd say the direction of your argument is already sufficiently offensive.
I wasn't attempting reverse psychology because the "challenge" you're referring to sounds like nothing more than inflammatory moral generalizations. Probably the worst possible way to approach this story, and the most direct way to missing its point entirely.
Well, thank you for insulting my writing, Nicolas. I have always tried to offer evidence from the show to support every viewpoint. I was not aware that I had written nothing except inflammatory moral generalizations.
Sorry, Luhks, didn't mean to insult. I only took issue with the ending where you decided to extrapolate fan's character preferences onto their own moral standards. You mentioned you wanted to try and do the same thing with the ship war (in the post you deleted) and I thought it sounded like an horrific idea. I shudder to think what you would have concluded about those shippers who prefer the "lowlife" to the "good man" .
Nicolas, If you didn't mean to insult, you should take care with some sentences in your posts (the same for some people posting here before you). Luhks only wants to post his/her opinion, the same way as Fishbiscuit has done in this "review" (that I don't like it and I don't share many of her/his points of view, I have to say it...)
Luhks, I would like to read your write, not everyone thinks the same way as many of the people posting here. I'm afraid that many people are in fact quiet because they don't want to start an argument, and I agree. It doesn't make any sense and it's useless. I'm certainly tired of these stupid fights between shippers. People doesn't accepts the others opinion and believes that they have some kind of "universal truth" or something, so it doesn't make any sense and it's useless IMO.
I posted my essay Good Men vs. Great Men during season three following the airing of The Brig. I argued that characters like Ben and Locke operate with a completely different moral compass than characters like Hurley, Jin, and Desmond. I also argued that a person's character preferences probably reflected their own value system. Nicloas apparently disagreed with that argument. Despite being posted in the Theories section for months, my Theory has dropped significiantly in rating within the past hour.
Suzie Wong said: "People doesn't accepts the others opinion and believes that they have some kind of "universal truth" or something, so it doesn't make any sense and it's useless".
YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!! SO WHY YOU CAN´T ACCEPT THAT I DON'T LIKE JACK, that it's very hypocrite. For instance: FB made a review, not a "review", you don't like it but it is a review.
Lunks saied "Kate's relationship with Sawyer is much uglier than hes relationship with Sawyer".Lol i think is oposit.Im sure that Kate is in love with Sawyer,i saw this in their hug in "One of US'.We knew Sawyer's feelings clearly already,but everything about that hug-from the way Kate's eyes were glued to him before it, to the uspoken "Im sorrys" on both sides to the way she wrapped her arms around his neck and closed her eyes,to the way she looked like she never wanted to let him go all that was enough to tell me where Kate's heart realy lies and that is with Sawyer and after all "EVERYTHING CAME'S BACK WHERE IT BELONG'S" and Kate belongs with Sawyer.And you mention "I DO" well that seal the deal for Jate.
Sorry, hulk, I think what TTLG told us is that Kate doesn't deserve either Sawyer OR Jack.
Face it, she used Sawyer to get at Jack (and to make herself feel better), which was quite clear to any non-shipper in Catch-22. She was rampantly jealous in TTLG when Juliet kissed Jack. If you missed that, then you have an eyesight problem.
Right now, as the series stands, she just doesn't deserve either man. Her heart doesn't know were it stands, and it never has. She's twisted up both men far more than they ever were off-island IMO. The whole "shipper" debate is arbitrary, thank God. Maybe we'll finally get back to the real heart of the series. It's not about shipping, it's about the characters and their connection to the island. It's about THE ISLAND. End of story.
YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!! SO WHY YOU CAN´T ACCEPT THAT I DON'T LIKE JACK
Sorry jacob's chair, but exactly WHEN and WHERE I've said that I don't accept that you or anybody likes or not Jack or whatever? I think you have so much imagination and you're just inverting roles here. I don't care what you like, I only say that I see too much rudeness with some other's opinions, that's all.
i'm sorry!
you were right!
those pants don't make you look fat!
OF COURSE, I HAVE A LOT OF IMAGINATION, AND I'M PROUD OF IT!
(what's wrong with living in a world of fantasy?)
Obviously I mixed your post with another, "I didn't mean to hurt you".
^^No problem, thanks for your apologies :-). Oh, and it's nothing wrong in living in a world of fantasy, I think in fact that ALL we are living a great fantasy watching this show (me, the first one). I only would desire that some people didn't forget that it's only a show and tried to enjoy it without entering in discussions and personal attacks.That's a shame!
i'm sorry!
you were right!
those pants don't make you look fat!
Hahahaha!
Good lord that was awesome. I don't know how your brain didn't explode. Mine almost did just reading it. I am exhausted, my head is spinning, I'm dizzy and will probably have to read it a few more times. BRAVO FISH!!!!
hagith Kate was no jealous in TTLG at all and see my poster above it's Gregg quote about Kate's jealous in "Catch-22"
FishBiscuit's bullet point with images style definitely doesn't hold up to a second reading. Pure fluff.
Absolutely fantastic, I wish I could debate and disagree or something with this article, but it's just fuckin' perfect.
Bravo Fishbiscuit...bravo
"I couldn't believe that you were using your personal assessments of these characters"
Aren't we all though?
I'm joining the discussion again, and I hope you're not all too angry with me! I read what I said yesterday and I WAS being harsh, I apologise... it's very double standard to judge one opinion by another, and even though that wasn't what I was trying to do, that WAS what appeared on the page. :(
Okay. Now - luhks.
"The episodes "What Kate Did" and "I Do" really spell out the root of Kate's attraction to Sawyer."
I agree with this - this is one of the main reason I'd rather see Kate with Jack than with Sawyer, because even since WKD I was slightly concerned I think is the word, by Kate's relationship with Sawyer. She said she felt something for him, which surprised me because I hadn't paid their relationship much attention up until then, because even though they missed each other when he was on the raft, it seemed their last proper interaction was Sawyer humiliating Kate in self defense. But when she finished her sentence with, "I feel sick", and went on to explain that when she looked at Sawyer she saw Wayne, and then Wayne supposedly spoke through Sawyer... I thought that Sawyer may be Kate's path to redemption, but how could they ever be romantically linked? And then season 3 happened and I found myself a bit disgusted, NOT by their relatioship as such, but because I hadn't forgotten her speech in WKD, and to me it was still like Kate kissing her father. That's probably just an instance in the story where they didn't have time to wrap that up properly, so that only the fans who really focused on this particular storyline, eg the Skaters, would feel the development of their relationship natural... the writing isn't perfect, look at Exposé/SiaSL, and that's where the personal assessment of characters becomes a major factor for us. It determines whether we care about relationships or not, whether we interpret the story as a Jate or a Skate story... obviously, no side has yet said, okay we were wrong and you were right, because we still see different sides of the story, and don't see what others see. It is a blessing and a curse for the show that it has this amount of layer.
But where we differ in opinion luhks, is that I do recognise the bond between Kate and Sawyer. Despite his storyline being - in my eyes - simplified, because I've seen his arc many times before where the character was the main role in a smaller cast, therefore had more time for his/her story to develop, I have great respect for his character, and while I found his actions in the mini-season unnatural, they were very sympathetic, and I changed my view of him here quite despite myself. I like Sawyer's redemption story, and that they've chosen to do it through Kate, a character as far out as himself, is interesting. But then there's Jack. I've always been greatly sympathetic towards Jack, in my eyes he is one of the most tragic characters (right after Locke and Sawyer), and after all he's been through I'd like to see him find happiness. The fact that he seemingly found it in the most unlikely person of all just makes the relationship that much more intriguing, and I would personally see it as a great anticlimax if at the end of the story, Kate was with Sawyer and Jack was with Juliet. Take no chances, be with the one you are similar to. No room for progression, but rather regression, falling deeper back into what they used to be. Maybe that's what has happened to Jack in his flash forward, he's the same shadow of a broken man he was when Sarah left him, except multiplied tenfold. I don't see that either Kate or Sawyer could become the person they'd want to be through each other (and this is where I agree loosely with luhks' interpretation of what Kate wants), though granted I'm not sure I know what Sawyer wants to be right now. I like the idea of their relationship being a step along the way for both of them, leading Kate to Jack and Sawyer back to Cassidy and Clementine, but if this is it, Skate is the end of the line, it'd be a letdown for me, for the reasons mentioned above. :)
Clearly you ARE a Jater and you are here promoting your POV on a place designated for comments on The Fish's review. You are hijacking this page to promote what you believe while swearing at her for what you see as her ‘bias’ review. If you feel so strongly about your POV -- why not start your own blog and generate your own audience instead of coming here and borrowing someone else's? You will not settle anything here or change shipper minds; all you appear to want is an argument. I am sorry anyone responded to you. Ignoring you would have been a better choice and I am sure everyone sees that now. The truth is that Jaters have made a public plea to each other to disrupt every Lost site, forum, blog, and entertainment page in an effort to keep your fan base viable to TPTB and the results can be seen here, on TWoP and elsewhere on the internet. Your continued sense of entitlement and your faith that TPTB will write Lost to suit the 15 Jaters left still clinging to a sinking ship is tiresome. Fans of the Kate and Sawyer pairing have enjoyed watching that couple’s story develop. Do we think that Skate is the end game? No. But it also could be; which you refuse to acknowledge. We know Lost belongs to the creative team that puts it together and not to the fans and even less to the shippers. Your endless carping that JIF is the difference between us and why shippers can no longer get along. No one, at any time, promised you Jate, when you accept that fact maybe we can have a rational conversation.
Well Seilina you saied "leadhing Kate to Jack and Sawyer back to Cassidy and Clementine" in your dreams that.And you saied "How could they ever be romantically linked" and if somebody isn't romanticaly linked it's clear that is Jack\Kate.And "I DO" i saied before "seal the deal" for Jate.And lunks saied that Kate desires to be with man like Jack or Kevin.And we see in "I DO" how many times did we hear Kate saied the words "I love " to her husbsnd? And in the end,the words meant nothing...her actions proved that she didn't realy love him.And Jack is good Kevin is good see the line ?.With Sawyer she proved she loved him woth her actions.... no words required.The smiles, the gentle touches and kisses and the fact she was wiling to give up her life for his.And if you think again this season ther were several key scenes this season between Jack&Kate and Sawyer&Kate the diffrense of course was Kate's actions and reaction's:We have Jack&Kate's reunion,who end with crying,We have Sawyer&Kate reunion who end with sweet hug and we have Sawter having gun pointed at him and Jack having gun pointed at him in TTLG.Similar scenes, dialogue,similar situations.Very diffrent results.Kate having a diffrent reaction to Jack's potential death in the scene with Lock in TTLG at the end.And in "I DO" when Picket put the gun on Sawyer's head well watch again that scene.And Jack's "ILY" in TTLG and Kate's reaction was just she looked rather pained,like she was having a bad gas attack.And When Sawyer saied "ILY" she smiles and kiss him.And in "What Kate DID" we see where is the problem with Skate. Kate need's to be good and Sawyer is bad.
losttvfan, are you serious??? I'm sorry, I was under the impression we were having a discussion! You see, I don't go to any general Lost forums, and the ones I know about won't let Jaters and Skaters talk anyway, because it also ends nastily. You're right, I AM a Jater, but that shouldn't mean that I can't talk to Skaters!! It's not a religion! I said my OPINION, in response to Fishbiscuit's, because I finally found some Skaters in a place where shipping discussion obviously can't be banned when posting reviews such as FB's - which, while being brilliant and all, IS BIASED no matter how you twist and turn it! And that's fine, but then I must be allowed to be biased as well, as long as I'm not being offensive, which as you must know after reading my previous post, I have apologised for being.
luhks posted a comment, which I discussed. Funny that I can't be biased when everyone else is... Why aren't you flaming up at nicolas or hulk for responding to luhks' comment?? Maybe because they believe the same thing you do?
I'm not promoting what I believe. I don't expect you to accept Jate, although I (as you'd know if you'd read what I wrote) accept Skate. I was, however, arguing my point, in the hope that we could have a mature discussion.
"Well Seilina you saied "leadhing Kate to Jack and Sawyer back to Cassidy and Clementine" in your dreams that."
- oh absolutely, I don't expect Sawyer to ACTUALLY end up with Cassidy! I just really liked her character, and in my dreams it WOULD be my ideal Sawyer ship. As for leading Kate to Jack, let's not sell the horse before we've caught it. I'm not saying it WILL end up like this! (so we can have a civilised conversation now I've clarified that I never said anything about being promised Jate...) I don't know either way at this point, I mean for most of this season I was convinced that KATE would die, and if she did we'd have neither... I just know that I personally would be disappointed - for the obvious reasons and for my arguments in the previous post - if Skate was the end of the line... it's fine to disagree, I don't expect anything else.
And imho I think there's more standing between us that Jaters saying JIF... such as our attitudes towards each other, and assumptions about each other's opinions, as witnessed in these comments......
losttvfan Thanks for the explanation of why there's been a sudden influx of JIF on TWoP. Still viable? The FF put the last nail in the coffin AFAIC. She said he's wrong in whatever obsession he has and walked way. She's even told Jack not to call her anymore. No romance there, and I don't believe for a minute this will suddenly turn into a show focused on Jack literally going back to the island for some kind of do-over, so no romance in the future either IMO.
selina Good try on the hi-jacking thing. It's the tone of moral superiority in many Jate arguments that I find insulting, and that's what makes your posts offensive. Take the whole Wayne thing as an example. Kate's exhaustion-induces crisis (she didn't leave Sawyer's bedside for 24 hours) was resolved in a single episode in which they even took the trouble to have Hurley EXPLAIN transference. When Sawyer woke up at the end, all she saw was Sawyer - the Wayne ghosts were banished. Sawyer even shared her positive vision of her mystical horse. Most of all, he needed a hair cut. But Jaters insist on holding onto that Wayne connection to run down Skate with.
It's absurd, but then then so is the whole notion that Jack's supposed "goodness" will somehow bring Kate salvation. Jack needs to save HIMSELF, something he's clearly failing to do in the FF as he has devolved into an obsessive, out-of-touch with reality, alcoholic. Yet, Jaters STILL assume this guy is CORRECT when he says that they shouldn't have left the island, and that Kate - who is sober and lucid and seems to be functioning and prospering just fine, is INCORRECT when she says they were supposed to leave. Believe the pill-popping drunk obsessive guy over the well-functioning girl? That one argument, alone, unmasks all other Jate arguments as being nothing more than a case of Jack worship. The basis of Jate "romance{" has always been more in Jaters' fantasies than it ever was on the show IMO. And that's the last I'm saying on it here since this thread is intended to be about FishBiscuit's superb and elaborate review of Season 3.
Hulk, you have good and uncomplicated insight. I like what you said here: "And the Fish don't bash Jack that is the reality about his character."
Can someone like Jack and Sawyer but not like Kate?
I think Kate makes them look stupid and uses both of them. This past season she was pretty lame.
About shipper discussion, we should all learn that they do not take us anywhere as nobody is willing to change their opinion in the subject.
Heather, a book or movie review is a review of a product that is already done. This show is not done - so I would have liked more objectivity. Thanks for your reply, though.
Yeah, we just all have different opinions... I just find it so terrible that every time I post something I'm being labeled, my point of view is continually being slammed, and just because you are the majority posting here (and face it, not many people would bother staying in the argument for as long as I have) you believe you hold the universal truth. methosrocks... I was presenting an alternative pov to yours. I wasn't trying to be morally superior (though as lisanne correctly says, assumed moral superiority vs. assumed intellectual superiority... again throwing stones), I REALLY was not, but... can we even have a civilised argument at this point? I really want to, but you need to stop your negative attitude towards me!! Is that a morally superior thing to say, or a desperate cry for us to come to some sort of understanding? I meant the latter, but apparently I have trouble getting my points across.
I'm not hi-jacking. Are you? Because if neither of us were, this would be a normal discussion rather than a cat fight.
Aiight, you say that Jack needs to save himself and I agree, but so does Sawyer at this point... I tend to actually agree with joana in that while I was terrified that Kate would die, I really haven't enjoyed her character this season, she's been indecisive and weak, and while the producers might have decided on Skate, I just didn't feel it came across as such through Kate's actions. Back and forth, back and forth, it's getting old imo, and Kate is supposed to be the main female protagonist - we need some girl power from her, some emotional drama and development that has nothing to do with EITHER man, or any other man for that matter... Kate's story is all about men, and she has been very selfish this past season imo. I love Jack and Sawyer, and Kate used to be my favourite character, but no, not anymore sadly :(
Don't you get it, Selena? In your effort to express your point-of-view, you "slam" FB. You are using her as YOUR sounding board, and then you wonder why you are "continually being slammed".
You're like the person who wants to be heard, so you stand on others to be on top.
So instead of getting defensive, try to figure out WHY [insert your last post here].
A question for Theodosia:
In your opinion, should the comments section of FB's review be reserved solely for people who agree completely with everything she says?
It seems that anyone who would post a criticism or disagreement could be labeled as a 'hijacker,' trying to use FB as a sounding board.
Attack arguments, not people.
If you know anything about Fishbiscuit, you'll know she encourages the free expression of opinion. Positive and negative.
What I find interesting though are that a lot of the comments (though not all) that criticise parts of the review seem to be doing a kind of name calling. Bringing up shipper factions, claiming oh, those damn Skaters. Oh those damn Jack bashers.
Fishbiscuit is not a journalist. She's a blogger. She can be as biased as she wants. I really don't get why people expect some kind of faux objectivity from someone writing an opinion piece. As far as I am concerned, all reviews and recaps are subjective and presented based on the writer's own perspective and interpretation of of what they've seen on the show.
I would have thought that by now people would learn to accept that not everyone worships the Jack character and believes he's the be all and end of all the show. Not everyone sees the beauty of Jate. Some of us see the rank ugliness of it and would rather not be forced to watch more imbalanced dominating and grovelling going on.
I want to see Kate grow a backbone and stand on her own two feet. She can't seem to do that when she's worried about whether or not she has Jack's approval or blessing on everything from cookware utensils to rescue missions to choice of lover.
So please PTB...keep her away from him, for all that's good and holy.
Selina (in my opinion) did take minor part of the review and blew it out of proportion, using it as some kind of soapbox platform to rant about the dubious merits of Jate, the sanctity of Jack, and the wrongness of espousing an alternate view.
It was a season recap, not a lengthy discussion about how Sawyer's better for Kate or vice versa for heaven's sake.
It's sad that some people just can't let it go.
As others have pointed out more succinctly and ably than I. If you didn't like the review, post why and don't read any more of them in the future if it's going to raise the blood pressure. Coming back again and again to beat a dead horse ad nauseum doesn't really help make your point. IMO.
Luhks asked: "Should the comments section of FB's review be reserved solely for people who agree completely with everything she says?"
-That would be stupid.
Luhks stated: "anyone who would post a criticism or disagreement could be labeled as a 'hijacker,' trying to use FB as a sounding board."
-That's where'd you be wrong.
Luhks stated: "Attack arguments, not people."
-And in that regard, a person should not take it personally when that person says "MY POINT OF VIEW is continually being slammed".
jacob?
http://synchromysticism.blogspot.com/
I'm not hi-jacking. Are you? Because if neither of us were, this would be a normal discussion rather than a cat fight. - selina
"Hi-jacking" refers to the fact that you show up - after every FishBiscuit review - with absolutely nothing to say about any part of it. You never comment on the review, or any aspect of the show other than Jate. Your agenda is just to promote Jate, play the martyr when people object to your moralistic pronouncements, and harangue whoever is dumb enough (including me) to respond to your endless posts.
If you really want to discuss/debate the merits of Jate, there are appropriate places for that. Start with the TWoP, but fair warning - your attitude toward other posters wouldn't be tolerated there.
I think you're just ticked off that FB - an avid Skater - was invited to post her reviews here. Period. Never mind that she puts a lot of hard work into discussing every aspect of the show, or that LOTS of people enjoy reading them. YOU aren't happy with them, and instead of doing the sane thing and just not reading them any more, you come back with the same "script" that's on the Fuse's Jate thread... over and over and over again. I'm done even replying.
Selina has been perfectly fair with her comments, as she excused herself from seeming too harsh at the beginning. I've never posted here before but I came out of lurkdom because I'm appalled at how argumentative many posters have been towards her when she has done nothing wrong. Chill people. I'll not be replying to any posts on this thread, it ain't worth it. P.S. FB I really enjoyed your review :)
All I know is that every Fishbiscuit thread, some of which I enjoy more than others, degenerates into a Selina drama queen show. It's tiresome.
Beyond tiresome. It's expected with every review now. Yippee.
I'm with Selina on that one. I liked what FB's done with all the pictures and collages, she's made some good points and I really admire her for the enormous ammount of effort that she put in this review. But all of this is spoiled by her biased opinnion about Jack character, whome I happen to love. In every single review she slips to that and it just laughable. I can't respect this, cause IMHO , as Lost fan , you supposed to try to understand and respect all different aspects of the show, and FB just doesn't seem to cope with the Jack aspect, FB is angry and doesn't want to deal with it, so she starts with bashing - an easy way, not the best one IMO.
I don't agree about a triangle, it's not even near to be over. There is a big deal to be told about Jack and Kate relationship, and I am waiting for it))))
Jack is walking among them, but he is not one of them, it's said in his tatoo...That's why many people don't get him... He seems different and we don't like different. Try to understand , people, don't deny!
SOry for my crappy english, not my native.
That atrocious tattoo episode should NEVER be mentioned by Jack fans in an attempt to defend him. It doesn't help your cause. That said, Fish isn't obligated to like Jack or cater to anyone in his favor. We all have our favorite characters on this show. If her bias is so offensive and a total injustice to society, don't read the damn review. You people know what you're getting when anything by Fish is posted here. Why do you continue to come back time and time again?? Is it for attention?? Gluttons for punishment?? It really boggles the mind.
Lena wath is your problem?.The Fish didn't biased Jack at all in this review that is the reality.Let's fase it Jack came full circle we know everything about him. we see him in the future that he is on drug.And that Kate doesen't want to see him.His story is over.We just need to see how he get of the island.And you saied the triangle isn't over well yes but will end is season 4 very soon i think.
I mean, no one is totally without bias or some sort of agenda- fish has her own personal likes and dislikes, and inevitably that's going to manifest itself in her review. Anybody would do the same thing, LOL
But anyways it was a great and informative review.
Alright, there's really no coming to a understanding, is there? Methosrocks, I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are very wrong in your assumptions of me... For the last time, all I wanted was to be respected my my opinions, hence the increasing frustration that I was merely put into the Jater Box and beaten down... but you know, I have a theory - these small confines of posts is what makes them seem so dramatic! I'm sure we all end up coming off more aggressive/dramatic than we intended to, I know I always get confused when I re-read my posts - I'm like, did I really write that?? And even reading this post again, it's strangely edgy, even though I'm completely relaxed... there's some kind of hyping up happening here......... hmmm.
hehe, I'm not trying to excuse myself btw, just to clarify - I don't think I have to anyway tbh, thank you Cassie, your comment made me happy. :) If my posts really bother you guys so much, I'm really sorry, I know we don't see eye to eye on the shipper thing, but I really just wanted to (after my initial reaction of omg not again - for which I've explained + apologised) discuss with you, and really to find out why I, along with others who don't share the pov of FB - like luhks I think was wondering - was not allowed to voice this, or it would be labeled as hi-jacking, or promoting some sort of agenda... again, it's a SHIP, it's not a masterplan to take over the world! I hope you can have some humour about this, because I'm starting to see what's so eye-rolling for non-shippers, even though I, as a shipper, take the bait every time (and there's nothing wrong with being a shipper!! ;))... it's part of the fun :)
Simple point: yes FB can have opinions, that wasn't my problem, it was simply that through the bias she might be overlooking key parts of the story, which would lessen the value of her review - which, if you noticed, I've said a million times was otherwise brilliant - so no, I don't only comment on the shipper parts.
hey! Also the narrowness of the post box makes the posts seem enormous..........
hulk, I still disagree that we haven't seen all of Jack more than we've seen all of everyone else, except maybe Desmond... but we'll have to see about that, you might very well be right, especially if the cast rumours are true!!
But yeah to round off... cos, monster post again... I'm sorry that I seem like a drama queen. I'm sick of apologising lol, but I really don't want to be on bad terms (like that isn't wayyy late, but you know) with anyone, that is not why I posted to begin with.
Yeah. Ohh and one last thing, what is TWoP? I keep seeing it around... meh. I'll look it up. Bye! xxx
(My $0.02 regarding "love-square")
We only got 48 episodes left with literally hundreds of mysteries to solve. It's gonna be packed, and I don't think there will be enuff room for this triangle-plus-one thing anymore and I know most people realize that. It seems pretty much done to me.
Quoting this review (coz hey, this windows is supposed to be about FB review):
....Which doesn't look like much of a battle any longer, when you look at it in perspective, but hey, it's a long hiatus and if it makes people happy to still pretend this is a contest...Enjoy.
Well said hulk.
Criticizing (bashing?) Jack does not equal bashing those who will always love-Jack-no-matter-what. We need to separate ourselves from our favorite characters and not project our own intentions as though they were theirs. A good reviewer will focus on the facts, which I think FB has done very well.
I believe FB will call out any character on his/her behavior whether good, bad, or in between.
That's one reason this is a great review. It's intriguing to see how these vastly different life-experiences come together.
"I believe FB will call out any character on his/her behavior whether good, bad, or in between."
I disagree, and I think that there is a definite bias in these reviews. Many people have been trying to offer constructive criticism to point out that the irrational hatred of Jack diminishes the overall quality of the recap.
See if this analogy works for their behavior: Jack was the A-student who has recently struggled and brought his grade down to a C (and his story isn't over yet). Sawyer was the F-Student who recently made some small improvements raised his grade to a D (and his story isn't over yet). For some reason, Jack takes all of the criticism from FB, while Sawyer takes all of the praise. Jack gets none of the credit for 'good behavior' and tons of blame for 'bad behavior,' while Sawyer gets a free pass on all of his bad behavior and gold stars for any improvement. For that reason, FB or any other reviewer deserves to be called out whenever they treat Jack-bashing as fact rather than opinion.
Onse again The Fish didn't bash Jack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hulk:
Actually yes she did. Constantly. Indirectly she is insulting everything that is Jack, and more importantly, his fans, for example:
"But some fans are stubborn. A lot of people seem to think that Jack has to be our monomythical hero. It's like thinking outside of that box makes their heads explode."
Like that. And in previous reviews... Jack is her long-time standing joke! Not saying anything except you don't really have an argument there, hulk.
And by the way VERY good analogy luhks! I agree very much! hulk, also, I don't think he/she is only talking about Fish, but about all her supporters posting here and their assessment of Jack....
FB, you did a magnicent job pulling together and illustrating the many strands of Lost. In particular I hadn't paid much notice to the watching/watched strand, which was repeated frequently this past season.
I would argue with one of your assertions, though, and not a shipper-related one. I don't think the island is truly a character any more. Yes, we had a few visually ravishing shots, in EMFH and in TTLG. But I think the island has been largely missing since the end of S1, as human works and human constructions displace the mystery that was present in S1. Somehow just seeing the smoke monster and Jacob don't restore the magic and the menace the island once held. I'm still hoping that element will return.
Is it possible to have a unified theory of Lost at this point? Some of the possible theories laid out in the review will probably turn out to be blind alleys. Again, your review has helped crystalize one of my little irritations with Lost as it's unfolded. I think they're making an effort to keep it within the sci-fi fold--okay, more fiction than science, but time-travel seems to be pretty accepted in the sci-fi world, like warp drives, however unlikely it is in the real physical world. I'm starting to realize I wanted more fantasy and less science. I dread the revelation that much of the weirdness the Losties are encountering are in fact the work of some evil corporation.
But that's my problem. The review is an excellent resource, and I really appreciate the efforts you made, not just putting this together but in researching the physics and the philosophy.
Hulk, if you really think that she didn't bash Jack, then you should read it again.
"His Trials [pictures of playing football and piano] are too wimp-ass for words." If you think that his time in the Barracks was the most difficult test of Jack's mettle, then you have not been watching the show for three seasons.
"We know he thinks he's the hero." Actually, no, we don't know that. In fact, we know the exact opposite. In Through The Looking Glass, Jack specifically says "I'm no hero."
The collage of Jack-Kate and Sawyer-Kate photos is also extremely misleading. Kate's relationship with both men has had its highs and lows in each season.
FB mentions the "hot, hot sex" between Kate and Sawyer, and neglects to mention that Kate was literally crying in that scene, because Jack had spurned her advances.
We could go on and on listing the biases, but I think it is time to admit that this review was not a complete and accurate depiction of the events of season three.
It's time to admit that, although this review encompassed more aspects of the show than any other I've seen posted anywhere, the crazed jack shippers indeed did have their heads explode because they obsessed over one small aspect of it. They blew it out of proportion, took over dark's board to whine about it and are now doing the usual job of thoroughly misrepresenting the entirety of the entertaining piece we were so graciously given. If nothing else, you've done more to prove Fishbiscuits' biases are well founded then she managed to do herself.
Ummm no one is taking over anything Nicolas... we are discussing a misunderstanding...
Well lunks i watch Lost more then you for sure.and the collage of photos is perfect that is the story of jate in season 3 crying and olnly crying.please tell me about one photo of jate that the Fish don't put in the review.And about the quote: "We know he thinks he's the hero".That is great he in all seasons is trying to be a hero but he is not he is pathetic.his actions always end's with total failure.
Luhks,
Here in your own post is where you lose credibility:
by saying, "the irrational hatred of Jack", you're saying that if you don't like - or hate - Jack, you are irrational.
Then about Sawyer fans, you said , "Sawyer gets a free pass on all of his bad behavior.". . . huh???
Obviously your opinion about why people disagree with you is warped.
And, by the way, FB's opinion of Jack is based on the facts evidenced in the photos.
FB wrote
But some fans are stubborn. A lot of people seem to think that Jack has to be our monomythical hero. It's like thinking outside of that box makes their heads explode. So, we'll give that one more shot. If Jack is the Hero, we just left him, at season's end, in the Inmost Cave. Dead. Hopeless. If the story is going to follow his monomyth, then the next step for this "hero" is the real life Hero's Journey known as Detox and Long Term Rehab. Followed by a new quest to round up the posse and return to the uncharted shores of who knows where. To reset time? To vanquish enemies? In other words a whole new show
it can't be an end of story. It's not delivering any message. He ends up drunky... What do you learn from that? That people like Jack end up like that? Why? Because he's willing to help, to fix things, and he is obsessed with that? So what? You better be like Sawyer , not giving a damn?!?! I don't think so!
It's all about faith. And we see in the FF, that in the end Jack gained the faith, and he regrets his mistakes... And we'll see that once you have a faith, you can change things, like Charlie did, like Dezmond did... And Jack will do it as well, I believe in it, cause he is stubborn and obsessed. Wait and see him saving the world (yes I'm crazy Jack warshiper, don't kill me for that)))))))
Yes, Theodosia, you are correct. It is irrational to acknowledge either only the good aspects of a character or only the bad aspects of a character. Absolute 'like' or absolute 'hate' toward any multidimensional character is unreasonable.
Statements such as Hulk's eloquent assertion ("That is great he in all seasons is trying to be a hero but he is not he is pathetic.his actions always end's with total failure.") are irrational, because they are phrased in terms of absolutes.
FB concludes: "You can probably make a case that almost any other [her emphasis] character on Lost is the Hero." The review argues that it is foolish to consider the character Jack Shephard as a hero, but it is acceptable to consider every character except him as a hero. This argument does not make sense, because it does not justify why every other character except Jack should be lauded for their positive qualities.
FB also diminishes even the remote possibility that Kate might still have feelings for Jack: "Jate! vs. Skate! Which doesn't look like much of a battle any longer, when you look at it in perspective, but hey, it's a long hiatus and if it makes people happy to still pretend this is a contest... Enjoy." It is unreasonable to assert that the other perspective is without merit when the show has gone to great lengths to demonstrate otherwise.
"You better be like Sawyer" not giving a damn" And Jack give damn ?no he isn't.You know i liked Jack character but few days ago i watched "Left Behind" because i didn't see that episode.And i don't like Jate but after that episode i don't like Jate even more.There you have Kate bawling her eyes out,saying Im sorry Im sorry,(for coming back because she was worried and wanted to save him).And we have Jack just SITTING there! I mean,have a little SYMPATHY Jack.Don't stay up on your HIGH HORSE and let the girl grovel like that!She did it for you.She marched willy nilly into the heart of darkness and tried to infiltrate a compound full of Others,because she was CONCERNED about YOU!!! She didn't know you were in cushy with the Others.The experience she and Sawyer had with the Others was breaking rocks,getting beaten to a pulp, being forced to sleep on concrete in polar bear cages,with a diet that consisted of rare meals interspersed with fishbiscuits and grain like things.How was she to know that you were playing footbal getting cheeseburgers and playing the piano!!!!!.But he just sat there.He didn't even have the DECENCY to ACCEPT her APOLOGIES.He just sat there!!!!!!!! He just sat there!!!!!! Im so very mad right now.I can bet that if roles were reversed and Sawyer was sitting there in that halway.Despite whatever he was feeling,he wouldn't have able to just sit there and watch her cry.He would have reached across.He would have held her,he would have brushed away at her hair.And he would say "It's okay ,Freckles.It's okay. And in "I DO" he was ready to give her life for her just to don't see her hurt. And you are saying that Sawyer don't giving a damn?.And because of this SKATE is the main couple on Lost.And because of this Skate is happening and Jate isn't and probably never will!!!!!!!!
Luhks, you're really showing how your jack bias has prevented you from even understanding this review. Clearly the hero argument isn't about positive qualities, but about following the proscribed arc laid down by Joseph Campbell's archetype. It isn't that Jack has no positive qualities, it's that he has no compelling hero's arc. The elements of the hero's journey are lacking. Agree or disagree, but at least try and understand what's been written.
Nicolas, I agree with your interpretation of the review. I don't agree, however, that FB has provided an unbiased character analysis using that archetype. FB has chosen to focus only on the negative aspects of Jack's story and none of the positive aspects. Take, for instance, FB's interpretation of the different 'Trials' of Jack and Sawyer. She could have chosen to identify Jack's isolation at the Hydra station or his showdowns with nemeses Ben and Locke as his trials. On the flip side of the coin, she also could have chosen to identify Sawyer's pingpong match with Hurley and Hurley's boar feast con Trials "too wimp-ass for words". She could have manipulated any other character's story to put a negative spin on it, but she chose to focus that lens on Jack. The main reason that Jack does not fit the Hero's arc in this review is that FB chose to highlight his negative qualities.
Well, I still disagree then, Luhks. The argument that Jack's trials are of a lesser degree is valid. Desmond was lost at sea, confined against his will for years and then visited with a terrifying new power. Sawyer has been tortured and physically ravaged any way a human can be. Locke has "died" from a liver shot. Juliet has been undergoing Jack-style trials for ten times as long. Jack has had some bad days. They Hydra wasn't pretty but no one beat his face in or stuck a needle into his heart, and he ate well. The showdowns with other men hardly count as trials - they all have to do that. I think it's a valid argument. You don't like the style of presenting it or the conclusion reached.
Same with the collages. They're almost a documentary trail of the two relationships, yet you consider them misleading. They aren't misleading. You just don't like what they say.
hulk, can I counterargue? You make a fair point with Jack, however, you have to remember what Jack went through as well. Do you really see his stay with the Others as a picnic, a cosy little holiday with pleasant company?? There is many ways to break a man/woman, and the Others, clever as they are, utilised a different method to break each of the three - Sawyer was broken by physical violence, mockery and by using his feelings for Kate (pushing forward his lusty thoughts of her via the fake pacifier). Kate was broken down by containment, by pure human psychology (breakfast with Ben, and his ominous speech, which clearly terrified her), and by her protective/romantic feelings for Sawyer, which they used to bring the two characters together (as confirmed in Exposé), all to break down Jack, who already in Hunting Party revealed that Kate was his greatest weakness. Jack was also broken down in other ways - Juliet coaxing him into trusting her as though he was five years old would have driven anyone up the wall, he was kept in a dark cell for days on end, he was chained to a dead body for heaven's sake... and was first taunted with Kate right in front of him though he couldn't touch her, then made to watch the woman he (we now know) loved sleep with someone else - for the second time in his life, reliving one of the worst experiences from his past. And this was all before we left him in I Do, we have no idea what they did to him during the week he spent with the Others. Remember Kate asked him in One of Us what happened to him? She didn't believe him when he said he kept his head low, so why would we?
Jack isn't a perfect character, no one has asked to try to put him on a pedestal. He never wanted to be the hero, as was made very clear in the first few seasons, especially in White Rabbit - and Jack says it very clearly in Exodus: "Everyone wants me to make the decisions until I make a decision that they don't like". The Losties chose him themselves, they can't have it both ways, and neither can we the fans... we can't want him to never make mistakes, yet hate that he's too "perfect".
And even though Jack and Kate were never together, Kate isn't innocent in all this. Jack WAS cold and I obviously would have wanted a different attitude from him as well, but just remember what he's seen Kate do, and she still hasn't told him either "I made a mistake for sleeping with Sawyer and I love you" (as you wouldn't want her to either obviously!!) or "I'm sorry but I chose Sawyer, I don't love you"... she's apologising, and for a moment he's waiting, but I think what he is responding to is just that he's so tired of the drama, of not knowing where he stands with her... she's hurt him deeply, whether she meant to or not, or was even aware of it.
It's just an alternative interpretation I suppose, but always worth taking into consideration.
Nicolas, in reconsidering this whole argument, I think you may be partially correct. Jack actually has undergone a unique story arc that is different from other characters. However, this uniqueness does not make his character any less heroic or any less compelling than any others. Unlike the other characters, Jack actually did win the battle of wills against his nemeses (Locke and Ben), and did succeed in his quest to get off the island. The reversal occured when, after he achieved his goal, his entire life was miserable and meaningless. This is an interesting new twist on standard, Xerox copy hero tales. Although the text has never been mentioned on Lost, Ovid's classic text, the Metamorphoses, includes countless stories that explore this theme of desire fulfillment.
Another strange irony here is that nearly everyone agrees that Through The Looking Glass was a fantastic episode. Jack haters were able to watch with sadistic pleasure watching their most hated character suffer for his flaws. Jack fans could watch their hero struggle with a completely new set of problems. Indifference, not hate is the opposite of love. The very fact that FB and so many others have put so much effort into downgrading him is evidence that Jack Shephard represents an extremely compelling character.
The only thing i have to say about this review is: Selina ftw! =]
Okay, I think this whole thing has gone a bit out of hand, so let me try to reason things out (yeah right... LOL).
1st of all, I do believe most of you here are focusing on FB's analysis of Jack WAAAAAY too much and ignoring the rest of it, but since that seems to be the most important issue here, I suppose I'll discuss it as well.
I'm fairly certain that FB isn't BASHING Jack as a character. She's merely saying that, PERHAPS we are incorrect in assuming that Jack is the show's "protagonist". She gives us reason why not to think of him as the protagonist, and instead suggests we look at other characters (Ben, Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, Desmond, etc.). Of course, each of these characters has things going for them and against them in terms of whether they're the hero or not (using Joseph Campbell's outline of what the archtypal hero is), but thats a given- of course there are scenes which can be used as evidence that Jack is the hero, but her point is that MAYBE HE'S NOT.
Now, of course, FB is a human being, just like all of us (well, I'd hope all of us...). As such, her own personal feelings for characters will inevitably end up in her review. Now, I can be fairly certain that Jack is not her favorite character, and that she doesn't think the Jack/Kate thing will ever happen. THAT'S HER OPINION SHE'S ALLOWED TO BELIEVE THAT, PEOPLE!!! THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF HER REVIEW, ALL OF IT REFLECTS HER PERSONAL MUSINGS AND HER INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON!!!!!!
Jeez, people... calm the hell down LOL
Now, of course, FB is a human being, just like all of us (well, I'd hope all
of us...). As such, her own personal feelings for characters will inevitably end
up in her review. Now, I can be fairly certain that Jack is not her favorite
character, and that she doesn't think the Jack/Kate thing will ever happen.
THAT'S HER OPINION SHE'S ALLOWED TO BELIEVE THAT, PEOPLE!!! THATS THE WHOLE
POINT OF HER REVIEW, ALL OF IT REFLECTS HER PERSONAL MUSINGS AND HER
INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON!!!!!!
I agree Zachary.
Look guys the review is alittle biased even if we can't accept it.
Selina you asked FB to write totally unbiased reviews or at least reviews without Jack bashing and that is obviously not possible since your arguments are completely biased also. I am not blaming you or anything...i'm just saying that it is imposible to write a review in which everyone will agree because as Zachary said we are human beings and we care about different characters.
Now i'll say it outloud: I AM NOT A JATER BUT I AM A JACK FAN & I LOVED THIS REVIEW. Why? because it is so well done...with pics and good explanations. I just laughed at the Jack analysis and realized that some things were true. There is no reason to get angry. SHE IS A SKATER, A SAWYER FAN AND SHE WRITES WONDERFUL REVIEWS.
I would only get angry at FB if she had started bashing MF(which a lot of persons do) so i'm thankful for that and yes as i said before i disagree with some points but don't we all. All of us have different POVs. We can give our opinions but reply to every single attack is actually boring and definitly goes offtopic.
Selina you saied "he's so tired of the drama of not knowing where he stands with her she's hurt him deeply" yes she hurts him but why he was so cold with her he just might accept her apologies.And Sawyer was also hurt in "Catch -22" a lot .When he realises that Kate used him.And i love how Sawyer handels Kate in the morning.He knows that Kate used him but he is still sweet to her and gives her the mix tape, which says alot about his feelings for Kate.He knows she used him but he loves her anyway and wants to still be sweet to her.It's one of my favorite scenes.
hulk said: But he just sat there.He didn't even have the DECENCY to ACCEPT her APOLOGIES.He just sat there!!!!!!!! He just sat there!!!!!! Im so very mad right now.
It seems like you're all upset at Jack because of that one scene in "Left Behind". You're right, he was very cold to Kate, but hey, he was gassed (obviously by three gas canisters, he was passed out a whole day longer than Kate), just regained consciousness and was very dizzy, probably having a terrible headache and not even able to talk or think clearly, nor to even stand up and walk on his own. And the fact that he didn't say anything doesn't necessarily mean than he didn't accept her apology. Sure, he should've been nicer to Kate for her selfless efforts to save him, even if her plan lead to failure for his chance to get off the island. After all, it was not her fault, she didn't know that Locke would betray her and do his very own blow-up-the-submarine adventure behind her back. I didn't like to see Jack's reaction and lack of appreciation to Kate's apologies, too. But under these circumstances, hmmm, if I put myself in Jack's shoes, right there and right then, I think I wouldn't have been able to be very friendly or talkative at that moment as well, even if I'm deeply thankful for what she did.
And don't forget that the writers wanted to make us viewers distrust Jack at that point. They wanted us to doubt him, to believe that he was working with the Others from then on, maybe even brainwashed... many people were convinced that he was part of a mean plan with Ben, either together with Juliet or as a failsafe plan against the people at the beach. Fortunately he was not, though, but they wanted to leave us in doubt all the time from "Left Behind" up until "Greatest Hits".
Anyway, I agree with your opinion about that scene, but you shouldn't make the mistake to overrate this one scene or see it out of context to where the story was going at that point.
I really like to read your posts and opinions, you always bring a fresh breeze to the discussions, but I must say this statement of yours is off the mark and is just a result of being very mad right now: "That is great he in all seasons is trying to be a hero but he is not he is pathetic.his actions always end's with total failure." ...c'mon, think about it again for a moment, this is just not true and you know it. ;-)
Ok, sorry people, back to topic. I think the review was good and entertaining, FB put a lot of work and research into it. I don't agree with all of her opinions, but that's alright. Thanks for posting it!
Hulk, do you really want get into this discussion about Jack bad behaviour back in "Left Behind"?
O.K.
O! How I hated Jack in that scene even more than you do and you are a skater, you should be happy for his behaviour, cause it's so killing Jate, you know!
But Jate is alive and kicking! Why? They love each other! They were trying to kill there relationship for so long.. but you can't kill true love.
Sawyer would have comfort her ? O, yeah! If I remember correctly, in the finale, when Kate approach him in the woods, trying to reach him, cause he became so distant all of a sudden, he didn't find warm words for her, he rejected her, just as Jack did, and even when she told him about the pregnancy, he remained as cold as ice..
So, they are even Jack and Sawyer, and you are free to be mad at Sawyer too... and please , don't tell me that Sawyer went through tougher things than Jack did... They even!
We all have our ups and downs
Lena saied "But Jate is alive and kicking! Why? They Love each other They were trying to kill there relationship for so long..but you can't kill true love".Well Lena im 17 but i can see wath is true love .And you saied that that Sawyer was cold with Kate in the final.Yes he was and see again the review and maybe you can realise why Sawyer was acting in that way.
hulk
you meen this?
only to be thrown violently back into the turbulent seas of his soul
So why don't he try to find comfort with the woman he loves, and she could give it to him, as I know Kate, she could have really support and understand him... James is not yet capable for real relationship (apart from sex), he hasn't grown that much, he actually degradated..
And Jack in contrary , realizes and opens his true feelings to Kate.. which is a huge step forward for Jate relationship
They're fictional characters...
It's like debating whether the Jolly Green Giant make a better partner for the BFG or Godzilla.
By the way...
I'm a Jozillaer.
"James is not yet capble for real relationship(apart from sex),he hasn't grown that much he actually degradated" yes he grown a lot this season because he's love for Kate.But his confront with Cooper hit him very hard emotionally and because of that he is pushing her away and probably we will continue that in season 4 .Maybe Kate will start a relationship with Jack in season 4 i don't know.But somebody much smarter then all of us here ones saied:"The True Love Always Win's in The End".And we will see wath will happen in season 4 because Damon saied that the triangle will end in season 4
Damon saied that the triangle will end in season 4
He did? For all we know (from Kristin) D&C said that they will end it in an unambiguous way at some point before the end of the series. So, not much hope that they'll end it in season 4.
chuck I think he was referring about season 4 because Kristin asked him question about season 4.And i think that they already set up the cards for the end of the triangle. We have "ILY" from Jack and "ILY" from Sawyer.She know that the two loves her.Now she just have to say "ILY" to one of them end end the triangle finaly.
I'm very torn about the triangle personally. I mean I've been very annoyed this season at how very ambiguous it really was, Kate going back and forth and really losing credibility as a character - I mean she's never been that key a character really (the Losted parody says it best, "shut up Kate, you never have an opinion about anything"), but this season her ONLY function has been her man drama, and since I love her character so much I'd want her to just grow some balls and stick to her choice, whichever choice! But then I get this sinking feeling, because I really feel it could go either way at this point... and in a way I prefer it this way, no set answer yet, because this way both Skaters and Jaters get to continue speculating and gushing and looking for moments and believing them to mean something... as nasty as we get with one another, it's nice to have hope for your ship and believe it actually WILL happen, isn't it? The end of the triangle will mean the end of all of this for one side of the fanbase who cares about romance, and that would be sad. Also if they're going to go for 3 more seasons, they could wait to end it till like, end of season 5 or something... or what I think would be the best solution, have one first and the other after, so either continue the Skate and end it in the end of s5, then have Jate, or end the Skate, let Jate get together and end that at the end of s5 and have Skate happening again... that way we'd all get something to work with, and some proper mvid clips! ;)
"He knows that Kate used him but he is still sweet to her and gives her the mix tape, which says alot about his feelings for Kate.He knows she used him but he loves her anyway and wants to still be sweet to her.It's one of my favorite scenes."
I agree, I've really loved Sawyer these past few episodes! It's also been a nice contrast to Jack, who HAS dropped as a character. I am worried about Sawyer after Cooper though... I mean for him to go back to his old Sawyer ways would be such a waste of good development! You're right, maybe it's Kate's turn to show some compassion for him, and not just play with him and hurt him like she's done (whether or not unintentionally)... but because I'm a Jater I'd prefer that Sawyer got stronger and better on his own, to a place where he could accept Kate not loving him the same way he loves her. But that's a topic for another fanfic, I mean discussion :)
Now she just have to say "ILY" to one of them end end the triangle finaly.
hulk, you're cute! I wish love would be as uncomplicated, pure and simple as you describe it. But, you know, love triangles are complicated, not only on Lost, but also in real life... I know that from experience myself.
In the finale they just wanted to confuse us all... Juliet kissed Jack and walked away, Jack said ILY to Kate and walked away, Sawyer didn't say much to Kate but wanted to protect her and walked away. Everybody got a cookie, Jate, Skate and Jacket. So they could go anywhere from here... it's all open.
They can make it even more complicated. For example, Kate confesses her love to Jack and finds out she is pregnant from Sawyer... or a seperation of the two groups. Remember, all the (potential) couples are seperated now. What if only one group is rescued and one is left behind.
But, again, I like the way you see it.
Or you know, Kate and Sayid run off together and Jack and Sawyer are left like, o.o
Ah, Kayid. I actually shipped that back in the day. :)
I do agree, I like the true love always wins in the end quote... if only that were so! But this isn't irl, though the characters seem as complicated and layered as if it was... and someone should get a happy ending! I like to think so, anyway. And I think at this point, depending on how they write it, Skate, Jate, ANY pairing could turn out to be the true love pairing! All power to the writers! Especially now they're sure not to get pulled...
Wow, great review, Fishbiscuit!
It's HILARIOUS reading these commments. I can see why the Jaters are so upset. They wish they had someone who cared about and appreciated the entire show like this. But as you can see from this comment section - Jaters don't care about Lost. They only care about Jate! ALL their weird, nitpicky, boring, meandering comments are about how "FB isn't fair to Jate!" and then endless blah blah blah about the most MINOR part of the whole review. Why? Because it's the ONLY part of Lost they care about. They aren't fans, they're shipping freaks. It's such a shame they've latched on to this magnificent show, especially when the awful non romance they are hooked on is so lame and sexless.
This review raised great ideas and has a lot to think about. Can fate be changed? Does free will really exist? Is Jack the real hero or just a fake out? Maybe the time loops we saw are just a metaphor for the time travel we do in our memories and in our wishes for the future. There is so much to Lost and I'm delighted to see that this review is so higly rated. Goes to show the miniscule number of boring Jaters really don't count for a thing. As we can all see in the story they're telling. Look at those montages! The pure, literal story - Jate is dark and miserable, Skate is colorful and full of complexity.
Thanks for the entertainment and the hard work. Ignore the irrelevant silly Jaters. They need to go back to chewing off their own tails on their own boring forums.
"Kate confesses her love to Jack and finds out she is pregnant from Sawyer" no chuck please don't even mention that better she chose Jack and be with him. I don't like she to be with sawyer because she might be pregnant."Kate and Sayid run off together and Jack and Sawyer left o.o".Maybe Selina who knows!!!!!!!!! or maybe she will fell in love with Vincent!!!!!!!!!!
"especially when the awful non romance they are hooked on is so lame and sexless."
LOL I'm glad you've settled what the most important things in a relationship are! I'd go for things like intimacy, mutual understanding, trust... actually like hulk was describing Skate too, I like THAT aspect of their relationship (even though I'd prefer she had that bond with Jack obviously, but that's where we differ innit?)
"Jaters don't care about Lost. They only care about Jate!"
Whatever you say, faith, whatever you say. :)
And yes chuck and hulk, I agree completely!! The pregnancy storyline is DONE, I really hope they don't go down that road with her!! Also because Kate (and now Juliet, but she's new so meh) is the only kickass female of the group!! If she's off having to take care of herself (redoing the Sun situation in Glass Ballerina, perhaps? *cringe*), eurgh. IF she were pregnant I'd want her off the island asap so her story could at least be different from what we've seen already!
Whatever happens, I'd just hate to see the triangle end like, Kate suddenly after going back and forth like this just makes a decision on the spot... I'd like to see Kate THINK for once, we really haven't got a real clue what on earth she's thinking these days (just like with Jack since he came back from Otherville)... you know I imagine the scene, Kate runs down the beach and sweatdrops in total Pokémon style, and calls out, "Sawyer, I choose YOU!" and Sawyer is all like... "sawyersawyer, sawyersawyer" as he hops along after her, whils Jack hangs his head and lets out a long and mournful, "jaaaaaack". Hehehe maybe I should stop watching that show in the mornings XD But yeah, she needs to think and make her peace with whomever she doesn't choose, sitting them down and saying listen, I like/love you but my heart is with (insert whomever you want here)... that's again my overly romanticised view of it of course!
Something else I just thought of:
"He had memories of his future self...I mean, his present self (his present self being a guy from the future living in his own past) ...and what he was forced to learn was ... that he had no choice but to relive that past in exactly the same way, even though he now knew it would lead him inevitably to banishment and pain."
I still don't know what exactly happened in Flashes. I'm sort of thinking that particular flash happened outside time and space entirely, in the time of the, ahem, flash of light from LTDA. All Desmond's other flashes have been visions, he wasn't actually transported to the future - only in his mind, letting him witness things he had no control over. When he flashed to his past (putting another spin on the word flashback, of course), it was different because he KNEW what would happen, and he knew that he had the power to change what would happen. But I still maintain that he was never actually THERE in the past, it was like a dream in which you know you are dreaming, but no matter what you do you can't wake up before the end of the dream. He needed to be delivered a message from TPTB, and in his mind he was transported to the time of the biggest mistake of his life, to illustrate to him that he could and should not change fate - but it was all in his head, imo, and that is why in the end he chucked in the ring after all, realising it was pointless to even try changing anything when it wouldn't work - of course, he was also still too spineless to actually dare take that risk, but I like to think that a part of him realised it wouldn't matter anyway, and that is the real reason he accepted what was destined to happen - and that's when he woke up.
But I'm digressing, sorry!
faith, what about those of us who don't care who Kate ends up with?
Surely, by your reasoning, we are the true Lost fans and Jaters/Sketers/Masturbators are all just lunatics with no (love) life of their own?
LOL Crikey you could be right! Of course there's nothing wrong with enjoying the romances. They're part of the show after all, like they're part of this review. It's the weird obsessive jaters that freak me out - like Luhks who wants mention of Kate's jack-tears in a mention about how Kate may have gotten pregnant. They've lost all perspective. They really don't realize that their obsession isn't even about this show anymore.
BTW, I love how you and others who claim not to have enjoyed this review are continually drawn back to this discussion about it. Bongzilla had to KEEP re-reading it so he could keep insulting it. So funny!
I thought the review was ok - as i said - just not that much there for me to get my teeth into (others disagree, hey ho, that's their right... and they are most probably right).
But... I do love the banter that especially Fishbiscuit's reviews generate, that swings from the constructive and supportive, to the downright demented :) and long may it be so - it's a long time till Lost is back on air. Does that make me a troll? Possibly, but a friendly one... and I do love Lost.
By the way, I consider you to be one of the most entertaining posters on here, you certainly know how to stir the pot :P
Let's not get personal here please... Jate isn't a species.
And can we not generalise either. Not every shipper is the same...
Well, it's obvious that no matter how fun or relevant Fishbiscuit reviews are, they always fuel the tiresome shipper war. Now that Faith has joined the usual group in the foray I can comfortably move on to more interesting things (like my laundry) knowing that the war is in good hands. LOL.
Faith, my point about Kate's tears was the following: It is misleading to refer to that scene as pure "hot, hot sex," and nothing more. Personally, I wouldn't think that it's very hot to have sex with a woman while she was crying over another man at the same time, but maybe I just have different tastes. "Sad, sad sex" might be a more accurate description.
And, I'd like to say a few other things for the record. I do think that the writing implies that Kate will continue to choose to be with Sawyer. I also think that it is obvious that Kate still has some feelings for Jack. I also do not think that Jack is just some "miserable stalker" control freak, but a complex human character with both admirable characteristics and flaws. I also think that the writers, producers, and actors would agree with me on all of these points.
I don't think that I am a Jater (and Jater is not even a word), but I do have my own interpretation of the show that I think is valid. I am a fan of the Jack Shephard character in general. Locke remains my favorite character, and I would defend him even if Locke-bashing became a fashionable trend. I do think that Jack gets a raw deal from many fans, who don't give him the same benefit of the doubt that they give to other characters.
Sad, sad sex? Are you kidding me? The point of that line was to talk about how Kate might also be pregnant. It would have been totally asinine to bring in the sick spoon licking scene since it was completely irrelevant to the point. And as for hotness- er, look at the picture! That's the kind of hot Jaters can only dream about. A very accurate description I'd say.
What do you have to say about the montages being misleading? Can you show where she left anything out on either one of them? Those gruesome pictures of Jack leaving Kate handcuffed and sobbing are actually used on many Jate sites as evidence for how HOT they find Jate! Jaters liked that bondage scene. LMAO, a lot of them freakin LOVED it.
"I do think that the wtiting implise that Kate will continue to choose to be with Sawyer".well lunks i think that from the season finale it's clear that Skate will be sepatate for a long long time.im skater but i think Sawyer\Kate can't move one step foward in their relationship.if sawyer can't get over about his Cooper issue.And i think that sawyer needs very long time to get over that.
"Those gruesome pictures of Jack leaving Kate handcuffed and sobbing are actually used on many Jate sites as evidence for how HOT they find Jate! Jaters liked that bondage scene. LMAO, a lot of them freakin LOVED it."
Apparently we don't run in the same circles, faith, because I'm a Jater, and the above is news to me... may I suggest it's you who is focusing a little too much on the sex aspect? Don't try to put this on the Jaters, you're the only one who seems to focus on this.
You want hot, you got hot. I prefer the emotional depth, however, which is why we both think we got our ship this season (which is a good thing really, isn't it?). Skate does have some emotional depth, especially in the mini season... but really, in broad strokes this season has given us, in my opinion, Skate physically and Jate emotionally. I've often used the argument that if the situation had been reversed - imagine: Jack and Kate were put in opposite cages and they slept together, under the same circumstances. Kate had the emotional walkie exchange with Sawyer, who sacrificed himself for her and Jack (who didn't want to go back for Sawyer). Kate leaves Jack to go back for Sawyer and they have a very emotional scene where she goes and grabs his hands and they lean into each other... when they get back, Kate sees Sawyer and Juliet flirting and goes to sleep with Jack again, he says are you crying and she says shut up. The season ends with Sawyer telling Kate I love you, and them having that strange trippy future scene. I know, it's simplified. But it's weird, as the situation is now, I'm worried Jate is over. But if it HAD been the other way around like I described, there would have been absolutely no doubt in my mind that Jate was a temporary thing, that Skate was what was eventually going to happen! Yet with the situation like it is now, I'm in no way convinced Jate will happen! It's weird, isn't it? But so I do think that we can't draw any conclusions as to which ship is going to happen, but who has the most sex definitely does not equal what ship is the best, or which side of shippers are the cleverer people or whatever! It's a personal thing, no matter what canon says, there is no "right" or "wrong" ship. Just a canon and a fanon. We should all be entitled to our own interpretations and opinions, as long as we give them respectfully... imo anyway. No need to bash an entire fandom, or label them as anything.
"Jaters liked that bondage scene. LMAO, a lot of them freakin LOVED it."
And a lot of Skater liked the scene when Kate slept with Sawyer, while crying because she'd just seen Jack EATING with Juliet.
It's a matter of opinions methinks. Comes down to the age old debate of what constitutes that thing called love.
hulk said:
""I do think that the wtiting implise that Kate will continue to choose to be with Sawyer".well lunks i think that from the season finale it's clear that Skate will be sepatate for a long long time.im skater but i think Sawyer\Kate can't move one step foward in their relationship.if sawyer can't get over about his Cooper issue.And i think that sawyer needs very long time to get over that."
Oh good point hulk, The Brig events definitely opened up a massive can of worms for Sawyer that we didn't even begin to explore in s3, and it is most likely leading to loads of shipper angst - and this is also where it can go either way isn't it, either the separation from Sawyer will make Kate realise how much she loves him, and needs to stand by him even through this period of his life (I could imagine a scene such as the what did they do to you scene from EMFH), or Sawyer could break it off with her and the story would sort of naturally move away from Skate in a way - like a relationship that could have gone places, but just didn't work out. I don't know which I think is more likely, what about you?
Aly, good point. While an entire fandom doesn't share the same opinion, of course, you can put whichever spin you want on anything, that doesn't make it true, it's just an opinion (like faith's interpretation of the MFT scene, and our interpretation of the skex in Catch 22). And as long as it's labeled as such, you don't offend anyone either! Yay.
What emotion did Jate get, Selina? She asked him to help Sawyer and he yelled at her and she cried. She came to save him and he left her in handcuffs and she cried.Then she tried to apologize and he ignored her and she cried. Then she ran after him like a dog and he treated her like crap. Then he said I love you out of the blue, she looked like WTF and they kept walking. When they got rescued they didn't even hug. Good for you if you consider tha emotion. It was all cold and dark and nasty that I saw and Kate was made to look like a total loser.
I saw a lot more emotion with Kate and Sawyer, real, normal emotions. Especially in the first love scene, and when they reunited on the beach. The reason you expect (correctly) there will be more Skate in the future is because when they are together they act normal, like lovers.Sometimes they fight or mistreat each other, but they also hug and kiss and hold each other. I have no idea why anyone clings to the idea of Jate. It's cold and unemotional and always feels forced and unnatural.
Ah, Faith, now we are getting to the heart of the issue here. Is love a 'real, normal emotion,' filled with hugs and kisses? Or is it something else, something more complex, sometimes difficult and painful?
I don't know what you're getting at luhks, but I sure hope love is a normal emotion. Whatever Kate and Jack have going on looks like something super sick. Especially from Kate's end - she cries and grovels and demeans herself for a man that looks down on her. From Jack's end, he's a cold fish. I still can't believe they didn't hug when they got rescued. I think Jaters are trying to find a nugget of gold in a pile of manure by pretending that the cold, contrived unnaturalness of Jate is something transcendent. It's just a grim, sometimes misogynist relationship where Kate projects her daddy issues and Jack judges and withholds approval. It's not love OR romance. At best, it's an ugly psychodrama.
The thing is, Faith, it's the way we perceive the world. For me, Skate seems forced and unnatural, whereas for you, Jate does. It's like Marmite, you either love it or you hate it.
The relationship of Skate this season has been very much plot devices. She slept with him as a direct result of the manipulation of the Others (I'm not saying the feelings weren't there, just that in a normal situation, I don't think it would have happened until later on in the series if it hadn't been a life and death, forced situation) which caused Jack to do the surgery (although I think he would have anyway). I'm not gonna list them, but for me atleast, everything's been a tool to move the plot forward. Skate has been this season, really. Every situation is directly linked to it, but then Jate is caught up on the rollercoaster too.
In response to your comment about Skate acting normally - I disagree. This season there hasn't been much time for sitting around, but if we look at last season, and the one preceeding it, Jack and Kate interact normally for lovers too. They flirt, and work together, and stuff. So I think the reason Selina expects (possibly correctly, but I think it's a tad assumptious to say for definite) there to be Skate in the future is because it's not Jate's time yet. Maybe Skate is more canon right now, but I think overall, Jate is gonna be there. Fish says in her review that obviously (how could I have been so blind to miss it after watching the season 4 times) there's no need for shipping wars. It's obvious Jate isn't over, or they would have dropped all the hints towards it, wouldn't they? What I'm trying to say is that I think in the short term, it's gonna be Skate, which is why Selina says she expects it in the future. However, I think there's light at the end of the tunnel.
When will it ever be Jate's time? Before or after Jack becomes a huge junky? In the few days or weeks left on the Island before rescue do you expect to see Kate do a 180 on the probable father of her baby and throw herself into the arms of the cold fish? Or do you think Jate will happen in the future? Will Kate go to Al Anon meetings for Jack? Come on - be realistic. There isn't even any opening in this story for Jate to happen now.
The question you need to ask yourself faith is, WHY did she cry? I don't need to remind you, I'm sure, that crying is a sign of emotion in itself... but look at the individual scenes. I've just been discussing the I Do glass scene elsewhere, and I've said before that I think the Others managed to break Kate almost as thoroughly as the broke Jack - Sawyer was the only one who came out a better person from this experience, for obvious reasons. Kate was already broken at this point. She was held capture, which is the worst torture they could have done to her, the mind games they were playing on her were only too obvious, and she thought Sawyer was going to die!! Of course she was crying, she loves Sawyer! I think she loves him as a friend, but that's another discussion. Doesn't negate that she can love Jack too, whether as a friend or otherwise. And why did Jack yell at her? Just to yell? Jack, deprived of daylight and food, not knowing if his friend and the woman he loved (we know this now) were even alive, he was chained to a dead body, manipulated even more than Sawyer and Kate, and the first thing Kate says to him when they finally meet again is, you have to save us or they'll kill Sawyer, which Jack understands as (because he understands the repercussions of operating on Ben better than Kate does, who is pretty much operating on a black and white basis, much like a caged animal desperate for escape) if she doesn't give a damn about him, and only wants to save herself and Sawyer. And he recognises that she is there only as another mindgame of Ben and Juliet's. His fears are confirmed when he sees Kate with Sawyer, and it is this which prompts him to do the surgery - to save Kate and the man she allegedly loves, and to get the hell away from them. Kate proves him wrong, shows that she does care about him, when she, despite his wishes, comes back from him after all (and why wouldn't she? Kate was right, how could they leave Jack behind, after everything? Again, she doesn't understand the full scenario), and Jack couldn't bear it. Kate had become Sarah to him in this moment, and he never wanted to see her again. Being in that room with her, her edging closer, despite him trying to remain cold and distant (also, remember that Jack will not show that she is his weakness, and the room is bugged), he cracks, and lets her in for a brief moment. But he leaves, knowing that this is still his and their only chance for rescue. Was it right of him to willingly leave them behind? No. He is not a perfect character. Do I believe that Sawyer would have done the same? In a heartbeat. In fact, remember Exodus? That's all. I know you've already posted again, lol, but I didn't refresh the page so I'll do that now!
Kate says she loves Sawyer, and cries because Pickett is beating him to a pulp. Kate kisses Sawyer, and cries. Kate sleeps with Sawyer, and cries. There's emotion there. Crying = emotion, on both sides. I agree that Kate hasn't been the same this season, but because of JACK'S treatment of her?? I'm sorry, this is the same Jack that sacrificed himself to save her, whose heart she broke (as Juliet so correctly informed her), and who she then tried to act completely normal around, right?
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R: Don't post personal attacks on my site again please. I do not want to start IP Banning people who cannot tolerate the opinions of others.
This is a final warning to everyone.
Discuss, debate, argue, but DO NOT get personal.
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Well said, Dark.
Do I believe that Sawyer would have done the same? In a heartbeat
Selina, if you think for one second that Sawyer could EVER have left Kate the prisoner of the Others for ANY reason whatsoever then you just don't understand the first thing about his character. He would have died rather than do that. The difference between Sawyer and Jack is the difference between Skate and Jate - Passion.
I realize Jaters like the cold, sexless, repressed whatever they get with Jate. But don't try to pretend Skate and Jate are two sides of the same coin. The appeal is entirely different.
Really nice FB, as always :).
Every man for himself.
Well I will post my opinion about the triangle:I think that This entrie season has been about Skate,from starting a relationship in dire circumnstances to feeling their way through the early stages of a love affair,to confronting..or Not confrontig their issues,to the outside factors that add angst to their relationship.We know that Kate is not always centered in her emotions.She's restless by nature not just physically but in her thoughts and feelings too.I do think that Sawyer has become her anchor her safe haven.I think that she counts on him more than she realizes and one of the things that gives her is the ability to do whatever else she needs to do without worrying he won't be there when she turns around.He gets it that she's restless.Sure there's a certain tug in her feelings toward Jacl Lol!!!! he was jealous.But i think that her jealous was more because she lost that plase beside Jack who she got in season 1 and season 2.Sawyer's ILY came early in the season,Jack's was at the end.Now i think we'll see her in season 4 examine her feelings for Jack and i think that will happen in Sawyer's absence the same way her feelings for Sawyer crystallized in Jack's absence.In the end,however AND THIS IS OLNLY MY PERSONAL OPINION,i believe that she'll see that what she feels for Sawyer is far more the "in love" romantic feeling than anything she feels for Jack.And onse again THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION.I belive what she needs from Jack is his approval,his respect and even affection.What she needs from Sawyer is him all of him.She needs his love and his arms around her and his presence at her side.She needs his passion and playfulness,his stubbornnes and spirit,and she needs the respite of their intimacy.He's the other half,her partner,the one she passionately in love with,not Jack. And i think to all of this to happen Sawyer must first get over his Cooper issue.And if not im afraid that well be the end for Skate.Not olnly for Skate also for Sawyer who is my favorite character.
What I meant before was: I do completely believe that Sawyer would leave Kate for the same reasons Jack did, if the story had called for it. At the end of Exodus this is EXACTLY what he did - he left Kate and the others behind to go search for rescue. The circumstances were different, he hadn't shared a level of intimacy yet - but as you have pointed out very clearly and many times faith, Kate and Jack haven't shared that yet. Jack believes he is leaving Kate behind with Sawyer, that he is their only hope of rescue. If Sawyer had seen Kate with Jack, would he be noble enough to leave her and his chance to be with her to get them all rescued? Well, I give him enough credit to say that yes, he would.
No, Selina, Sawyer did NOT do the same thing. Kate was not a prisoner. In handcuffs. Left with the same people who just almost killed her a week before. You're making a completely invalid comparison.
I'm not going to get into that disgusting pool room scene. It was definitely the most disgusting unloving moment either ship has ever had. I'm actually apalled at how many Jaters worship that scene. It makes me wonder what's wrong that modern women can still be willing to tolerate such a degrading scene and even find it hot. Gross.